Trinity

[ksalzar]

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, hello to you all.

I grew up baptist and have recently started to diverge from my childhood doctrine.

Specifically I am diverging on the issue of Christology, the trinity.

Is there biblical support for this doctrine?

[Botz]

Generally G-d is defined as being..

Omniscient...All knowing.

Omnipresent...Everywhere at all times.

Omnipotent...All powerful.

Chapters 40 through to 50 in Isaiah set out how amazing G-d is above everything.

Nothing can even come close to how G-d is defined here...for example.

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Then have a look at the references to Jesus.

Afterwards have a look at the references to the Holy Ghost.

Check out John chapters 14 to 16

You will find things that can only be attributed to G-d are attributed to both the L-rd Jesus and the Holy Ghost and therefore you can draw your own conclusions from Scripture about the complexity and unity of the nature of G-d...personally I have always found the Creed and mans definitions of the Trinity to be an attempt by sinful man to define the Being of a Holy G-d and although helpful they fall far short of truely defining the L-rd G-d Almighty and we get a progressive personal revelation of the Awesome Holiness and Person of G-d as we continue in our daily walk with Him.

[ksalzar]

Generally G-d is defined as being..

Omniscient...All knowing.

Omnipresent...Everywhere at all times.

Omnipotent...All powerful.

Chapters 40 through to 50 in Isaiah set out how amazing G-d is above everything.

Nothing can even come close to how G-d is defined here...for example.

Isa 42:8  I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 46:5  To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

Then have a look at the references to Jesus.

Afterwards have a look at the references to the Holy Ghost.

Check out John chapters 14 to 16

You will find things that can only be attributed to G-d are attributed to both the L-rd Jesus and the Holy Ghost and therefore you can draw your own conclusions from Scripture about the complexity and unity of the nature of G-d...personally I have always found the Creed and mans definitions of the Trinity to be an attempt by sinful man to define the Being of a Holy G-d and although helpful they fall far short of truely defining the L-rd G-d Almighty and we get a progressive personal revelation of the Awesome Holiness and Person of G-d as we continue in our daily walk with Him. 

Thank you for your response.

The points you made I have looked at and they do not lead me to the conclusion that Jesus is God. The reason is that if one does a study of those points you will find the following:

As for Jesus being Omniscient:

Mark 13:32

But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows...nor the Son, but only the Father.

As for Jesus being Omnipotent:

Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Bible tells us it was the Father:

Hebrews 5:7

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle - not from men or through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead - and all the brothers who are with me,

Acts 3:13

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus,...

This quote shows Jesus is not all powerfull.

As for glory:

John 17:22

The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one

Here we are told that the same glory the Father has given Jesus, Jesus has given us. I'm sure we both agree this does not make us God.

Another point that has caused me to leave the doctrine of the trinity is an attribute of God which you have not mentioned. God is also self-existent. Yet Jesus tells us he is not:

John 6:57

As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

Here Jesus tells us that the Father is self-existent saying "the living Father", and he also tells us that he is not self-existent. Rather he lives because of the living Father.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[cymba22]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

[ksalzar]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

You are right, he did say that.

But what is the context of that statement in John 10 cymba?

[other one]

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, hello to you all.

I grew up baptist and have recently started to diverge from my childhood doctrine.

Specifically I am diverging on the issue of Christology, the trinity.

Is there biblical support for this doctrine?

As you look into this and decide make sure you don't just stop at 4 or 5 verses, but look through all them. You might need to read the entire bible to be sure for yourself. I did this many years ago and decided that I no longer believed in the standard description of the "Trinity".

That the three exists is true and and easily found in all scripture. However you will find many scriptures that will tell you that they are not all three equal. Also not all knowing, for only the Father knows when Christ will return, Not man, nor angels, The Son, nor the Spirit.

Also when Jesus promised us the Spirit when he left he made it plain that the Spirit would tell us all things, but not on His own, but would only tell us the things he heard, or was told. Not all knowing for the Son or the Spirit.

It is a very difficult subject to discuss unless you cover all scripture at once.

It is my personal belief that any doctrine should agree with all scripture or the doctrine should be changed to agree with all scripture or scrapped as a whole.

[Trinity]

Isaiah 41

The Helper of Israel

1 "Be silent before me, you islands!

Let the nations renew their strength!

Let them come forward and speak;

let us meet together at the place of judgment.

2 "Who has stirred up one from the east,

calling him in righteousness to his service [1] ?

He hands nations over to him

and subdues kings before him.

He turns them to dust with his sword,

to windblown chaff with his bow.

3 He pursues them and moves on unscathed,

by a path his feet have not traveled before.

4 Who has done this and carried it through,

calling forth the generations from the beginning?

I, the LORD -with the first of them

and with the last-I am he."

---

Hebrews 3

Jesus Greater Than Moses

1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

---

Hebrews 1

8But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,

and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy."[6] 10He also says,

"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end."[7]

Psalm 45

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 102

24 So I said:

"Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;

your years go on through all generations.

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

Like clothing you will change them

and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

---

Zech. 12:10,

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.

Rev. 1:7,

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen."

---

Joel 2

32 And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.

Romans 10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[5] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]

---

Ps 24:8-10

8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

1 Corinthians 2

8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

---

Isaiah 30

15 This is what the Sovereign LORD , the Holy One of Israel, says:

"In repentance and rest is your salvation,

in quietness and trust is your strength,

but you would have none of it.

Acts 13

35So it is stated elsewhere:

" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'[5]

---

[other one]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

John 17:20-21

0 "I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me

NASB

When he says that they are one I don't think he is saying that they are the same thing, or we might be able to say that we are the Son or The Father for that matter because he wants us to be one so we would be in them.

All throught his ministry he (Jesus) told us that he didn't do anything on his own, but what the Father told him to do. He was in direct contact with the Father which no man/woman has done since Adam sinned. If we are one and in Him and He in the Father we would be in both, thus giving us a direct contact with the Father as did Adam. Thus the contact with the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit sent by the Father to lead and instruct us in all things, if we are in them.

Just my thoughts on the one'ness

[ksalzar]

Hello

This is my first post on this forum, hello to you all.

I grew up baptist and have recently started to diverge from my childhood doctrine.

Specifically I am diverging on the issue of Christology, the trinity.

Is there biblical support for this doctrine?

As you look into this and decide make sure you don't just stop at 4 or 5 verses, but look through all them. You might need to read the entire bible to be sure for yourself. I did this many years ago and decided that I no longer believed in the standard description of the "Trinity".

That the three exists is true and and easily found in all scripture. However you will find many scriptures that will tell you that they are not all three equal. Also not all knowing, for only the Father knows when Christ will return, Not man, nor angels, The Son, nor the Spirit.

Also when Jesus promised us the Spirit when he left he made it plain that the Spirit would tell us all things, but not on His own, but would only tell us the things he heard, or was told. Not all knowing for the Son or the Spirit.

It is a very difficult subject to discuss unless you cover all scripture at once.

It is my personal belief that any doctrine should agree with all scripture or the doctrine should be changed to agree with all scripture or scrapped as a whole.

I completely agree.

[ksalzar]

Isaiah 41

The Helper of Israel

1 "Be silent before me, you islands!

Let the nations renew their strength!

Let them come forward and speak;

let us meet together at the place of judgment.

2 "Who has stirred up one from the east,

calling him in righteousness to his service [1] ?

He hands nations over to him

and subdues kings before him.

He turns them to dust with his sword,

to windblown chaff with his bow.

3 He pursues them and moves on unscathed,

by a path his feet have not traveled before.

4 Who has done this and carried it through,

calling forth the generations from the beginning?

I, the LORD -with the first of them

and with the last-I am he."

---

Hebrews 3

Jesus Greater Than Moses

1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. 3Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

---

Hebrews 1

8But about the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,

and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy."[6] 10He also says,

"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

11They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed.

But you remain the same,

and your years will never end."[7]

Psalm 45

6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;

a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions

by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 102

24 So I said:

"Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;

your years go on through all generations.

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

Like clothing you will change them

and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

---

Zech. 12:10,

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.

Rev. 1:7,

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen."

---

Joel 2

32 And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.

Romans 10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[5] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]

---

Ps 24:8-10

8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

1 Corinthians 2

8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

---

Isaiah 30

15 This is what the Sovereign LORD , the Holy One of Israel, says:

"In repentance and rest is your salvation,

in quietness and trust is your strength,

but you would have none of it.

Acts 13

35So it is stated elsewhere:

" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'[5]

---

Perhaps you could explain to me your points with these verses trinity. I don't see how these prove Jesus is God. Or that the concept of the trinity is biblical.