Trinity

[ksalzar]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes:

John 10

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so taht you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings ksalzar,

Trinity might be amazed, but I agree with HIM. Here are additional verses to add to his already good collection:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 11:25-27 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rev 1:5-8 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Now if you were to READ the scriptures, you would see Jesus on numerous occasions "prayed to the Father". He told His disciples that at Pentecost, He would send the Holy Spirit to "be in them".

This is why we believe in the "trinity of God", because each of these "persons" are represented separately and individually, yet are completely ONE. There is BUT ONE GOD who is eternal, the Alpha and Omega.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[other one]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes:

John 10

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so taht you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence.

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity. I wouldn't call it a doctrine for I have not compaired it to all scripture,,,,, but I'm working on it

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father and the Father know us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit is a grave mistake.

I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit sent by the Father and is so Special it is not safe to discuss it's properties.

These things are my personal beliefs over a very long time of reading and listening to the Bible and much pondering and Prayer. The scriptures I quote here are just a few that express what I learned from many.

If this helps to understand the relationship of the three good, if not pay no attention to me at all. It is as I say just my belief.

Edited August 22, 2004 by other one

[ksalzar]

Greetings ksalzar,

Trinity might be amazed, but I agree with HIM. Here are additional verses to add to his already good collection:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 11:25-27 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rev 1:5-8 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Now if you were to READ the scriptures, you would see Jesus on numerous occasions "prayed to the Father". He told His disciples that at Pentecost, He would send the Holy Spirit to "be in them".

This is why we believe in the "trinity of God", because each of these "persons" are represented separately and individually, yet are completely ONE. There is BUT ONE GOD who is eternal, the Alpha and Omega.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I will respond to this when I get a chance, until then I would just like to take this chance to say thank you for your responses.

Please understand that I grew up trinitarian and I may be a bit challenging to talk to, so be patient.

Also I would like to take this opportunity to ask everyone to consider the points I will make honestly. The reality is we are all seeking the truth.

I have been perfectly willing to accept the trinity as biblical growing up, my question to you all is if the trinity turns out to not be biblical will you be willing to submit to that?

With that said, I hope to have good, edifying discussions of this with you all.

-Kyle

[ksalzar]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes:

John 10

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so taht you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence.

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity. I wouldn't call it a doctrine for I have not compaired it to all scripture,,,,, but I'm working on it

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father and the Father know us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit is a grave mistake.

I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the actual Spirit of Jesus and is so Special it is not safe to discuss it's properties.

These things are my personal beliefs over a very long time of reading and listening to the Bible and much pondering and Prayer. The scriptures I quote here are just a few that express what I learned from many.

If this helps to understand the relationship of the three good, if not pay no attention to me at all. It is as I say just my belief.

interesting stuff, I disagree with you on much of it. I do not have time to respond at this moment, but I will after a while and I hope that we can both learn alot from each other through an honest look at scripture.

[ksalzar]

Greetings ksalzar,

Trinity might be amazed, but I agree with HIM. Here are additional verses to add to his already good collection:

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 11:25-27 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
All of these with the exception of the doubting Thomas passage, simply say that Jesus is the Son of God. Which I agree Jesus is the Son of God. The issue I am bringing up is where is the biblical basis for Jesus being "God the Son" the second person of the trinity.

As for the doubting Thomas verse, Jesus says something relevant to that in John 10.
John 10:33-36
33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?

35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken -

36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Here Jesus points us to the other men who are called God, yet we know they are not the One True God. My point is that the word "God" which is applied to Jesus by Thomas is also used of other men who are not God, as Jesus himself points out in John 10. None of this gives me a biblical basis for knowing Jesus is the One True God.



Next you have put forth this verse:
Rev 1:5-8 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
I don't see anything saying that Jesus is the One True God in this verse6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
I don't see anythign saying that Jesus is the One True God in this verse. Here I see it said that the FAther is God, morever the God of Jesus.7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Nothing about Jesus being the One True God in this verse.8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation started off saying "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants". Jesus is speaking what God has given him. This verse 8 seems to be applied to God the Father as I understand it, for nowhere else is Jesus referred to as the Almighty God.


You close with this statement:
This is why we believe in the "trinity of God", because each of these "persons" are represented separately and individually, yet are completely ONE. There is BUT ONE GOD who is eternal, the Alpha and Omega.
I have not seen any scriptual support put forth yet that shows these three are one in essence. I agree that there is One God who is eternal. I know of no verses in the Bible which attribute the quality of being eternal to Jesus. I know of a verse where Jesus states the the Father is self-existent and he himself is not.
John 6:57
As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Jesus lives because of the living Father.

[toothless]

The Trinity:

There's an old saying and I think it's true.

Pick your heresy, no matter which way you turn from the trinity,

there lies error. Many confuse a hierarchy in the God head with many

errors such as Jesus not knowing the day or the hour, because he was in a

state of hypostatic union. So he could not be God.

There is only one place to go, some portion of God is not God.

I'll give you a few end points so you'll know where you might end up.

With the Mormans 3 seperate gods.

With the J.W.'s Jesus was created.

The wackos Jesus and Satan are created and equal.

Jesus only a man born by God.

Jesus only spirit.

Jesus was totally God there was no God in heaven while he was here.

Jesus was just a man.

Jesus was an angel.

Jesus was a man born without sinful propencitys.

Pick a combination of these or parts thereof. Good Luck.

The book of John was written to clear up the errors your looking

into I would suggest reading it in it's entirety.

[Trinity]

Old Testament Proof Jesus is God

Genesis 1:26 states, "Then God said," Let Us make man in Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." From the beginning, Scripture shows there is a United Group. The plurality of God is also discovered in the creation of man. According to this fascinating verse, man was created by God in his own image. However, there is something provocative and unexpected in this verse. Prior to the creation of man we find a conversation between God (Elohim) and an unidentified being ("let Us make man in Our image"). Who is this person with whom God is speaking? This person, or intelligent being, has some attributes that we can glean from the text. First, the personage is able to speak with God "on His turf", that is, in the realm of timeless eternity. Secondly, this being apparently has the same kind of creative ability as God ("Let US make"). This describes a cooperative effort between Elohim and the person with whom He is speaking. Finally, the likeness or image of this being is comparable to God's ("In Our image, after Our likeness"). When confronted with this passage, often people claim that God is speaking to the angels. However, this explanation fails to recognize a number of problems.

First, there is no indication in the Bible that angels can create life. Secondly, nowhere is it indicated that angels are made in the image of God. Finally, there is no indication that mankind was made in the image of angels either!

We may conclude that the person with whom Elohim is conversing lives in the eternal realm, has His creative power and exists in the image or likeness of God. No angel, no man, no created being in heaven or on earth could possibly fit these criteria.

Isaiah 7:14 states, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give us a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Emman'u-el. Meaning God with us. The word Emman'u-el itself means God, but God

[toothless]

Trinity:

Here's one you missed in you last, and I might add well done post.

When Paul and other N.T. writers used the word Lord, it was a Old Test.

term of Yahweh. They were saying Lord God Jesus. I think someone was trying

to make a point. The exact same name of God in the old was transposed to the

new in reference to the Christ.

[Trinity]

Trinity:

Here's one you missed in you last, and I might add well done post.

When Paul and other N.T. writers used the word Lord, it was a Old Test.

term of Yahweh. They were saying Lord God Jesus. I think someone was trying

to make a point. The exact same name of God in the old was transposed to the

new in reference to the Christ.

Yes i did know that i forgot thanx for bringing that up