Trinity

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Trinity,

Yahoo, Blow him out of the water Trinity! Love to see you using scripture appropriately.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ksalzar]

Greetings Trinity,

Yahoo, Blow him out of the water Trinity! Love to see you using scripture appropriately.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Aww, I thought we were here to edify and learn about God's word. I'm not sure blowing me out of the water is the goal.

Perhaps you would all be willing to talk through each of these passages one by one with me.

Let's pick one and start there.

As it stands I have put forth a few responses for a few of those passages, responses which I feel are very honest questions. Instead of throwing the same passages back at me, perhaps we could discuss those passages and my objections as to why they may not prove that Jesus is God.

The prime example I am thinking of is John 10:30. I have already put forth a few objections to a person using that to prove Jesus is one in essence with God.

Perhaps you all could address those objections for me?

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[ksalzar]

Jesus also said..."I and my father are one"

Notice how the passage in John 10 where Jesus says he and the Father are one closes:

John 10

37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so taht you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

The context is one of action and will, not of essence. Just as other one pointed out Jesus later says that we will all be one even as he and the Father are one. Again a context of action and will, not of essence.

This is something I posted some time ago that addresses my belief in the trinity. I wouldn't call it a doctrine for I have not compaired it to all scripture,,,,, but I'm working on it

QUOTE

Exod 24 10Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet (15) there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

QUOTE

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, ' AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

QUOTE

John 1:9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world and the world was made through Him and the world did not know Him.

John 8:57-59

57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

NASB

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Philippians 2:5+ Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me;

QUOTE

John 17:20 Jesus prayed " I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their work: that they may all be one; even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me"

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father and the Father know us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit. I fear discussing the workings of The Spirit for none of this in more than my personal beliefs, and to get something wrong concerning the Spirit is a grave mistake.

I will just say that I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.

QUOTE

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also come the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put al His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection, it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection, to Him. And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, That God may be all in all.

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit sent by the Father and is so Special it is not safe to discuss it's properties.

These things are my personal beliefs over a very long time of reading and listening to the Bible and much pondering and Prayer. The scriptures I quote here are just a few that express what I learned from many.

If this helps to understand the relationship of the three good, if not pay no attention to me at all. It is as I say just my belief.

Greetings other one.

I'm not sure that Philippians 2 and John 1:1 support the conclusion that Jesus pre-existed. This is why I disagree with your understanding.

I would like to discuss both of these passages with you if you are interested so we can learn each others p.o.v. better and perhaps learn something about God's word(that is the Bible, not the pre-existent Jesus Christ ) in the process.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[toothless]

Ksalzar:

If you would'nt mind , I did'nt read all the posts to this point, but maybe

you could give us a quick synopsis of your current understanding

of the position of Christ, Holy Spirit, and the Father.

Knowing what you actually believe, may be a help in finding a way to affirm

or deny your understanding. I enjoy and can better relate to declaired

statements such as ,

Jesus is equal with God

Jesus is eternal.

Condensed thought is easier to discuss than abstract concepts.

[other one]

ksalzar, it will have to wait for some time, I am off to a training class tomorrow and I won't have much time for at least a couple of weeks.

I am sure y'all can carry on well without me spending much time for a while.

Later

Sam

[ksalzar]

Ksalzar:

If you would'nt mind , I did'nt read all the posts to this point, but maybe

you could give us a quick synopsis of your current understanding

of the position of Christ, Holy Spirit, and the Father.

Knowing what you actually believe, may be a help in finding a way to affirm

or deny your understanding. I enjoy and can better relate to declaired

statements such as ,

Jesus is equal with God

Jesus is eternal.

Condensed thought is easier to discuss than abstract concepts.

Agreed, thank you for this productive question.

I started this thread stating that I grew up baptist and have since diverged from that doctrine on the issue of the trinity and christology.

About a year ago I started to struggle with this doctrinal issue while discussing it online with a group of people labeled christadelphians.

After much grief and anguish over the subject, after all I cannot think of a more important doctrine concerning a christian than ones christology, I have come to a different conclusion than that of my baptist upbringing.

Specifically I do not believe the Bible teaches Jesus pre-existed other than in the mind of God. I also do not believe the Bible teaches Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity. Basically I am a biblical unitarian, which is quite different from a universal unitarian. What that means is that I believe God the Father is the One True God. I do not think everyone will be saved or that we all will become God or any thing like that which is commonly associated with universal unitarians.

I do still consider myself a christian. I believe the Bible is God's inerent word, and that Jesus is the Son of God who was crucified and raised from the dead. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is the only name given under heaven by which we must be saved.

Again thank you for a very honest and appropriate question.

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[ksalzar]

The christadelphian forums on which I discussed this issue of Jesus being God and pre-existing I have found to be very respectful and very biblical. I personally believe I should be able to defend my faith which is why I began posting on this particular christadelphian forum. After all, they didn't believe Jesus was God! As it turns out I could not defend this position and they could defend their position very well. I do not want to post a link to that forum just because I'm not sure that would be appropriate, but if you would like a link to check it out I could post it.

You would find that their forum is very knowledgeable, respectfull, and truth seeking. While I do not agree with them on other issues at this point, I agree with their position on christology and the trinity. They have articles addressing most(if not all) of the major trinitarian arguments which are commonly put forth, for example all of the arguments put forth above by "trinity". If you would like to know more detail on my position, reading their articles on specific passages such as Col 1:15-22, Phil 2:5-8, John 1:1-14, Heb 1, Gen 1:26, Rev, Isa 7, etc., would be a good place to start.

I do not want to just post all these answer to the common proof passages of the trinity though, as that would be non-productive. What I would like to do is discuss these passages one at a time. My point for doing this is two-fold.

1) To give trinitarians a chance to bring me back to teach me biblicaly why the trinity is true, so that if it is the truth I may again find it.

2) To present unitarian understanding of these passages so that if these are true you may have a chance to gain this truth.

My honest purpose is for us to better seek the truth, whichever way is correct.

The post that "trinity" made above would be productive if I had not researched these issues before, because it would let me know the starting points of the major passages that are relevant to the issue. Since I have studied these before, the post is not that productive for me, it will be more productive to talk in more detail about each passage specifically, one by one.

-Respectfully

Kyle

Edited August 22, 2004 by ksalzar

[ksalzar]

ksalzar, it will have to wait for some time, I am off to a training class tomorrow and I won't have much time for at least a couple of weeks.

I am sure y'all can carry on well without me spending much time for a while.

Later

Sam

Understood.

[Botz]

Hi Kyle.

You wrote...

Thank you for your response.

The points you made I have looked at and they do not lead me to the conclusion that Jesus is God. The reason is that if one does a study of those points you will find the following:

As for Jesus being Omniscient:

QUOTE 

Mark 13:32

But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows...nor the Son, but only the Father.

As for Jesus being Omnipotent:

Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Bible tells us it was the Father:

QUOTE 

Hebrews 5:7

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle - not from men or through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead - and all the brothers who are with me,

Acts 3:13

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus,...

This quote shows Jesus is not all powerfull.

As for glory:

QUOTE 

John 17:22

The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one

Here we are told that the same glory the Father has given Jesus, Jesus has given us. I'm sure we both agree this does not make us God.

Another point that has caused me to leave the doctrine of the trinity is an attribute of God which you have not mentioned. God is also self-existent. Yet Jesus tells us he is not:

QUOTE 

John 6:57

As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

Here Jesus tells us that the Father is self-existent saying "the living Father", and he also tells us that he is not self-existent. Rather he lives because of the living Father.

You seem to make errors common to many who shipwreck themselves as they wrestle with Scriptures.

1. If you truely understood what is being said in chapters 40-50 in Isaiah...at the very least you would see that no one can even approach anything resembling the awesome nature of G-d Almighty...and yet both Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Scriptually defined with words that share the Fathers glory!

2. You make no distinction between the limits that Messiah Himself has in His vulnerable human state and His glorified risen state.

3.If you balance the many verses that show the Father raising Jesus from the dead with other verses you will see that the L-rd is involved as is the Holy Ghost Which demonstrates something of the complexity and mystery of the G-dhead!

That the Father raises Jesus from the dead shows the union of the G-dhead in operation and in no way implies inferiority and besides that it is the last act that ressurects the dead man Yeshua ben David and declares Him to be the Risen L-rd.

[Trinity]

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Colossians 1:14-15 In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn {Inheritor} of every creature:

Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2 Corinthians 5:19 To whit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself,

1 Thessalonians 5:18 In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Some of the Bible Quotes reference that Jesus contains the Characteristics and abilities of God within Himself this therefore associates Himself as God. This is necessary because Jesus is God in Human forum. When God does split open the Heavens and reveals Himself to us as God it won