Free Will and Predestination

[johnP]

If we have no free will and God has already chosen those that will be in heaven then why does He need our help?

He does not need our help but priviledges us with the task of helping to round up the sheep.

This is the way He has chosen to do it. It was His choice. I suppose He could have done it anyway He saw fit. He saw fit to get us out and about annoying everone! As far as I am concerned, I think it would have been a lot better if He just zapped us and got us the hell outa here! But what do I know?

Why follow Christ's teachings? Why do anything? Why don't we merely believe that God exists and be done with it?

Believing in God won't save you. He expects that from you anyway. That is expected from sinners because He has not left us in the dark about Himself. Rom 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

It is at the cross that Jesus died for my sin. He said that if I believed that then He would be my Saviour. To put my trust in Him, that He has paid for my sin. I have put my trust in Him. That is faith and it is a gift from God, Eph 2:8-9. Nothing else is required. John 6:29. And His gift is non-returnable. Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

We cannot lose our salvation.

Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes...

Of course, for any and everyone that believes. But many are called few chosen. The 'everyone' are those that God makes alive, Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins. If He forgave all the sins of everybody then no one would go to Hell. And we know they will do so, it is a Limited Atonement. You can't go to Hell if your sins have been forgiven. That is right isn't it? It can't be any other way. Either He has forgiven us all our sins or He has not. I believe He paid the penalty and forgives me all my sins. Therefore I am saved because I believe. That is faith and nothing else is required. Col 2:13 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

1 Thess 5: 9-10 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The chosen.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

All types of men is intended. You must limit that 'all men' mustn't you? It does not mean all men ever born or will be born does it? Anyway it says nothing of salvation being given or taken just salvation appearing. That does not save by itself. It is appearing, the grace of God that brings salvation, whenever a Christian opens his mouth.

johnp

[johnP]

Sorry KMB.

I cut and pasted and missed the top bit!

KMB.

Yes, we plant seeds and point the way but the Holy Spirit convicts and leads men to repentance.

Where's your free will in this then?

johnp

[Wildgraywolf]

Simply because God knows the outcome; it does not follow that our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared. God knows all because it is God's nature to know all.

But that's not what Predestination/Calvinism teaches. It teaches unconditional election - that before the foundation of the world, God didn't simply look forward in time to see who would come to Him, He actually CHOSE ( ergo - the term elect ) those whom He wanted. That seems totally contradictory to the mission of Jesus. He came to save the lost.....but with predestination, there are no lost.

John, I'll be addressing your issues when I get home....'k ? Might be later on tonight, but I'll get to them.

God bless,

Bob

Okay, I'll consider myself more educated, but even more clueless none the less. Calvinism sounds more like a paradox. If it's true then Christianity and for that matter all religions become pointless meaningless exercises; correct or am I missing something?

Matt. 13:22-23

The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold."

[Qun Mang]

Simply because God knows the outcome; it does not follow that our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared. God knows all because it is God's nature to know all.

I agree with this. God knows who his sheep are and who they aren't. He knows who will accept Him and who won't. This is perhaps a way God judges those who never heard of His Son (including infants) who die still unknowing, though that would be another discussion entirely.

I must believe in this because if I believe in predestination then I have no hope. I received Christ over ten years ago, but I don't live my life in Him. I know I must pray and read the Bible daily but I don't except when learning a passage I must know for when I teach/lead the children I work with. There is some sin in my life that happens over and over, and while I hate it and eventually repent I still do it. There are many things I passionately teach the children I work with that are clearly absent in my life. Now if I were predestined for Heaven I would be living my life for God, not just knowing and teaching the way we should live. I have had time enough to do it and yet I don't. I don't know why am so unmotivated- it has to be more than the Devil at work. I pray a couple times a week, with occasional short prayers when I read a request here (just b/c I don't post in that forum doesn't mean I don't read it and pray), but it isn't always, well, there if you know what I mean.

In short, I am not motivated (in fact that describes other areas in my life too), and I don't see how I could be one of the elect with that attitude. If predestination is truth then I am Hellbound.

[Orr v'emet]

Sorry KMB.

I cut and pasted and missed the top bit!

KMB.

Yes, we plant seeds and point the way but the Holy Spirit convicts and leads men to repentance.

Where's your free will in this then?

johnp

Let me ask you a question. Do you always do what the Holy Spirit says?

[Khristeeanos]

johnP,

I would appreciate it if you would do me a favor and research out these points which I will make and see if you come to the same conclusion I have.

1. The original church (the one established at Pentecost in AD 33 according to Acts chapter 2) did not disagree on one thing but had, "everything in common" (Acts 2:44).

2. At today, those who claim to follow Jesus the Messiah do not have "everything in common."

3. This means that at some point AFTER the original church, false teachings were introduced into the church.

4. I have found that with the exception of one man, who was a Roman Catholic, the doctrine that you propose here in this thread did not exist until the man by the name of John Calvin (1509-1564).

5. John Calvin tortured Michael Servetus (on October 27, 1553) by supporting his slow (approx. 30 minutes) burning at the stake and therefore could not have been a Christian according to the following verse:

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

+ + + +

All that being said, I would like to ask a few sub-questions.

5a. How can a doctrine be true when it didn't exist in the church until just a few hundred years ago?

5b. (more of a personal observation than a direct question meant for you to pray about, as I have)

Is this doctrine more important to you than your personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

[Guest Isaia]

Hello again everyone,

For the record, I would like to state that I am not a Calvinist. I however agree with JohnP, and have posted a reply earlier in this forum.

DIME Ministries,

I would like to answer your post.

I agree with your statements 1,2 and 3. However I do not agree with 4, and the following logic that you draw from it.

Since reading this debate about free will, predestination etc, I have become aware of this " belief" called Calvinism. I beg to differ though, on the fact that John Calvin introducted this belief.

Romans 9 predates Calvinism by about 1500 years, and states in no uncertain terms that God chose Isaac over Ismael, before they were even born ! Doesn't this sound like predestination/Calvinism ?

Doesn't that make the whole arguement that a doctrine that only came into existance a few hundred years ago false, as it happened in Abraham's lifetime ?

How do you explain away the Book of Life ? That it exists, and that if one's name isn't in it, it's into the fire for them. ( Rev 20:15) Isn't this predestination ?

The Early church agreed on all things, and one of them was God's Sovereignty. God can do what He wants, when He wants, How He wants, and no one can stop Him or change Him or do anything to deter him. we need to accept this fact too...that God is God.

If we are predestined, why then evangelise ?

We do not evangelise. God does, through His Holy Spirit. We just take the message. Whether we are heard or not is God's decision. We preach His Gospel, so that those He choses to save are saved, and those that He does not chose to save, have no excuse when Judgement day comes. Either way, it is not ours to question why this is to be done, it is only ours to do it.

This is a very hard concept for a lot of Christians to accept. This is why "we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness," 1 Cor. 1:23. The Jews, who brought the Mosaic law stumbled when they met Jesus, and the Greeks, who prided themselves on their wisdom, logic, philosophy and mental prowess, saw this as foolishness.

We can only make sense of all these perceived contradictions in the Bible, if we start where we should start...with the fact that God is God and He is sovereign. Once you accept this, when God becomes the centre of your belief, and you become the peripheral, then things will make sense, and the doubts about things such as predestinationa and free will won't be an issue.

God Bless you all

Isaia

[johnP]

Hello Wildgraywolf.

Simply because God knows the outcome; it does not follow that our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared. God knows all because it is God's nature to know all.

It does not follow that our free will is impaired by the foreknowledge of God.

This would be possible possibly but only if we were all created the same or had some balancing control where we all ended with the same ability. Is this the case or are we now on the way into the Twilight Zone.

Because you are speaking about free will I will take it for granted that you believe we should all have the same ability otherwise it ain't fair.

...our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared.

But freedom, just for the sake of argument, of the will is manipulated Wildgraywolf and it is obviously manipulated.

What of a man born in the America's BC. He's got no chance of knowing about God the Saviour has he. He has the witness of God's existence within him and the light from nature, his conscience and the creation, but he has not got anything concrete to base his understanding of God on.

He has no scriptures and without these he is a dead duck!

Do we have to include chance, 'that's the way the cookie crumbles' or do we trust that God knows what He is doing?

How did the person find himself out in the dark, was it chance or was it God's plan for Him, or something else?

If it was chance then God isn't fair. If it was God then God isn't fair, poor old thing gets it all ways don't He?

Read the 'It ain't fair', Romans 9:10-25 cause it just is not fair. God did not promise us fair. That's an invention. There is a fair. It is fair that we stand as condemned and guilty before Him. We have no rights as fallen sinners. None of us. The lump of clay is all the same. Created all the same. Guilty sinners deserving Hell, all of us. That would be fair.

And here we stand wagging our finger at Him! Or at least one us is. We had better be sure we are right cause He is a consuming fire and He does not take kindly to stiff necked people!

What is this if it is not impairing or depriving of the exercise of free will, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

What do you think?

johnp

[Khristeeanos]

I won't take the time for a full rebuttal, but will ask for someone to show me *in context* where Romans 9 is talking about individual salvation.

It is obvious to me that it is talking about some being a servant to the other and that God's plan for salvation (not individuals predetermined) is the key theme.

[Wildgraywolf]

Hello Wildgraywolf.

Simply because God knows the outcome; it does not follow that our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared. God knows all because it is God's nature to know all.

It does not follow that our free will is impaired by the foreknowledge of God.

This would be possible possibly but only if we were all created the same or had some balancing control where we all ended with the same ability. Is this the case or are we now on the way into the Twilight Zone.

Because you are speaking about free will I will take it for granted that you believe we should all have the same ability otherwise it ain't fair.

...our free will and exercise of free will is in anyway deprived or impared.

But freedom, just for the sake of argument, of the will is manipulated Wildgraywolf and it is obviously manipulated.

What of a man born in the America's BC. He's got no chance of knowing about God the Saviour has he. He has the witness of God's existence within him and the light from nature, his conscience and the creation, but he has not got anything concrete to base his understanding of God on.

He has no scriptures and without these he is a dead duck!

Do we have to include chance, 'that's the way the cookie crumbles' or do we trust that God knows what He is doing?

How did the person find himself out in the dark, was it chance or was it God's plan for Him, or something else?

If it was chance then God isn't fair. If it was God then God isn't fair, poor old thing gets it all ways don't He?

Read the 'It ain't fair', Romans 9:10-25 cause it just is not fair. God did not promise us fair. That's an invention. There is a fair. It is fair that we stand as condemned and guilty before Him. We have no rights as fallen sinners. None of us. The lump of clay is all the same. Created all the same. Guilty sinners deserving Hell, all of us. That would be fair.

And here we stand wagging our finger at Him! Or at least one us is. We had better be sure we are right cause He is a consuming fire and He does not take kindly to stiff necked people!

What is this if it is not impairing or depriving of the exercise of free will, John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

What do you think?

johnp

Greetings JohnP;

I apologize my original post wasn't very clear. I was speaking about predestination which I didn't understand well and was later corrected by BobTriez (thanks Bob!).

Anyway, what I meant was that just because God knows how we will exercise our free will; God didn't cause it to happen. God doesn

Edited August 26, 2004 by Wildgraywolf