PENTECOSTALISM

[stevehut]

I will look up the Greek for everyone to make sure what you say is correct, because I am pretty sure the unknown tongues part is in the original Greek.

I'd be interested to hear what you find.

If you call yourself a Pentecostal (and I don't know if you, in particular, do), the I'd suppose that you're identifying with the events of Pentecost....right?

The miracle of Pentecost, was that each person heard the disciples speak in their own language. These were not angelic lanugaues or ecstatic utterances, but the actual known languages of men.

[traveller]

Take a note. Healing services canceled!

I probably shouldn't be so picky here, but...

Certainly the apostles had the power to heal, but I didn't know they had healing services. In the Bible, I have always seen healings as done spontaneously in the moment. I haven't seen where the church gathered for that particular purpose.

Am I missing something?

stevehut, many times it appears the crowds came together for that very thing.

Matthew 8:16-17

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,

17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses.''

Matthew 15:30 Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them those who were lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.

Matthew 19:1-2

1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.

2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.

Mark 1:33-34

33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door.

34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

Luke 4:38-40

38 Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon's house. But Simon's wife's mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her.

39 So He stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her. And immediately she arose and served them.

40 Now when the sun was setting, all those who had anyone sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Luke 9:11 But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.

Acts 5:16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Acts 8:5-7

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.

6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

Acts 28:8-9

8. And it happened that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and dysentery. Paul went in to him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him.

9. So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

[Scudbuddy]

Take a note. Healing services canceled!

I probably shouldn't be so picky here, but...

Certainly the apostles had the power to heal, but I didn't know they had healing services. In the Bible, I have always seen healings as done spontaneously in the moment. I haven't seen where the church gathered for that particular purpose.

Am I missing something?

Steve,

I finally agree with you. You shouldn't be so picky. Especially since it is obvious what I am saying in that whole paragraph is to make fun of the whole thought line that at the moment of the last apostles death, suddenly the gifts were gone. I was trying to show how ridiculous that is, and in your post 1 and 2, you try to convey that I am saying there are "healing services", which of course leads to your next "question/accusation" of "where is that in the bible?"

And in post 2 you do the same thing with hospitality.

So here it goes for any of you who can't read between the lines what is so obvious to most. Neither are used in the bible. Sorry that some of you (Actually one) can't see the elephant in the living room because of the mouse on the floor. For those of you (Only one of you, probaly) that can't see the deeper meaning of that analogy; I am referring to your always looking down looking for the rats in the story, and your inability to see the big picture.

And again for those (the one) who don't know what the big picture is.

WE HAVE NO DOCUMENTATION WHATSOEVER WHICH SEEMS TO BE SO IMPORTANT WHEN CRITIQUEING THE GIFTS THAT THERE WAS A SUDDEN LOSS OF THE GIFTS AFTER THE APOSTLES DIED. NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE. NOT ONE! WHY? BECAUSE IT DID NOT HAPPEN. AND I DO BELIEVE SINCE THE GIFTS MIGHT JUST PLAY AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE CHURCH COMMUNITY, THAT SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE SAID SOMETHING TO EXPLAIN THE SUDDEN LOSS OF THE SUPERNATURAL.

[stevehut]

stevehut, many times it appears the crowds came together for that very thing.

Not the same as having a series of regularly scheduled meetings, and expecting God to move "on cue".

The instances that you cited, were spontaneous.

[stevehut]

WE HAVE NO DOCUMENTATION WHATSOEVER WHICH SEEMS TO BE SO IMPORTANT WHEN CRITIQUEING THE GIFTS THAT THERE WAS A SUDDEN LOSS OF THE GIFTS AFTER THE APOSTLES DIED.

Did someone in here say differently?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I will look up the Greek for everyone to make sure what you say is correct, because I am pretty sure the unknown tongues part is in the original Greek.

I'd be interested to hear what you find.

If you call yourself a Pentecostal (and I don't know if you, in particular, do), the I'd suppose that you're identifying with the events of Pentecost....right?

The miracle of Pentecost, was that each person heard the disciples speak in their own language. These were not angelic lanugaues or ecstatic utterances, but the actual known languages of men.

There is a difference between praying in tongues and giving a message in tongues:

A message in tongues is very distinct and and needs an interpretation to understand what was being said. This is where the gift of interpretation comes in.

But there is also praying in tongues which does not have to be interpreted because it between you and God. Its the Holy Spirit praying through you. Also praying in tongues is a means for personnel edification and inner strength.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

1Co 14:4 The one speaking in a tongue builds himself up, but he prophesying builds up an assembly.

Rom 8:26 And likewise the Spirit also joins in to help our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes on our behalf with groanings that cannot be uttered.

The bible teaches us that when you are praying to God in the spirit that you are not speaking to man but to God. So praying in spirit is not a message to interpreted but its between you and God.

1Co 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God, for no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.

I guess what I am trying to establish is non-Pentecostals try to mix the message of tongues that requires an interpretation with the supernatural pray language of the Spirit. They are not the same.

Its just like me praying to God in english vs. Giving a message to a group in English.

God bless,

[stevehut]

Jedi-

So the example of Pentecost is no longer practiced?

[Scudbuddy]

Greetings, all...

This is a subject that I have struggled with for many years, and still am not sure about it.

The matter of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and speaking in Tongues.  It seems to me that if they were genuine manifestations of the power of God, then I would be able to find a continuous historical record from the apostles to today.

From all of my discussions with my Pentecostal friends, they only know of the history back to the 17th century.  Nothing before then.  So I must ask...

Does anyone know the history of this movement, before then?  Can it be traced back to the apostles, in a continuous historical line?  I'd be eager to know.

QUOTE (Scudbuddy @ Aug 27 2004, 10:31 PM)

WE HAVE NO DOCUMENTATION WHATSOEVER WHICH SEEMS TO BE SO IMPORTANT WHEN CRITIQUEING THE GIFTS THAT THERE WAS A SUDDEN LOSS OF THE GIFTS AFTER THE APOSTLES DIED.

Steve Hut to Scudbuddy

Did someone in here say differently?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve,

Your original question in this whole forum is classic Cessationism. If you would like I can also document your stance on the many other forums that show you are a classic Cessationist. It wouldn't be hard. It would show that you are hostile toward the gifts and those who practice it. You might try being sneaky about it by asking "questions", but with documentation of your other post, it will be obvious that you are not looking for anwsers, but making a statement.

If you do not believe that I can do this, just try me. I have already looked up several of your other post on other questions concerning the gifts. I have done this with others. I don't like having to do such, but if you try this coy, "I am just asking honest questions" stance anymore, I will cut and paste that stance out of existence.

Again, if you are a Cessationist, (You ignored these questions the last time I asked) why are you on this forum? Is it not to lead us out of our "deception" regarding the gifts and the practice of such? Do you want another tired ol 3 songs and a sermon routine that plagues Cessationist churches, and is beginning to infect many Charismatic/Pentecostal churches who have listened to the crud of the Cessationist/Seeker-Sensitive Critics out there who never liked a healing or miracle or laugh or deliverance they have seen yet?

Are these your goals? To make us like that? Not on my watch!

Edited August 28, 2004 by Scudbuddy

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Jedi-

So the example of Pentecost is no longer practiced?

Yes both types of tongues is used in the Church today just as they used it in the Book of Acts. Sometimes people of other languages do understand what is being said in the spirit but this is not always the case but it still happens.

Either way you look at it its God by his Spirit supernaturally speaking though us sometimes by prayer sometimes in a message and sometime in a known language that we do not know. Its God that works it we just speak it as God gives us.

Sometimes tongues is used as a sign for those that do not believe.

God bless,

[stevehut]

1- Your original question in this whole forum is classic Cessationism.

2- It would show that you are hostile toward the gifts and those who practice it.

1- I don't know what Cesationism is.

2- Not hostile to anything or anybody. I'm just unconvinced. You're not doing your cause any good with this reaction, Bob.