The End of America

[Guest shiloh357]

Context? I was addressing your previous statement –

shiloh357, on 24 November 2010 - 06:23 PM, said:

The Bible does not call us to flee. It calls us to stay and be a light for those in darkness. Fleeing is cowardice.

I was simply showing that God has commanded His people at times to flee / leave and even sometimes to surrender their enemies since they were being used by God to chastise them for their sins

I did not say that God has never called on anyone to flee from something in the past. I said that HE is not calling on us to flee. To grab something that God said in the past and make it apply to our situation and time period is a fallacious handling of the text.

shiloh357, on 26 November 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

In Mark they were sent to cities to preach and if the cities did not receive they were to move on. Jesus was asking them to flee Israel.

Very good Shiloh, but the righteous were being told to leave because His judgments would go in after them and be poured out upon the wicked unbelievers.

However the point is that it is not a command that is applicable to our day and situation. Jesus was talking to His disciples; it was not a command to modern believers. It is part of a narrative text and must be interpreted as such.

shiloh357, on 26 November 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

In the Revelation passage, it refers to not partaking of the world's system. It cannot be rightly applied to fleeing from America.

So, the whole of Revelations 13-19 is simply addressing “the world’s system?”

That is not what I said. The passage you cited in Rev. 18 uses the term Babylon to refer to a corrupt, socio/political/religous system that does not exist today in the specific form described in Revelation.

You are trying to pin it on America, but you have no solid hermeneutic footing. The mistake you are making is that you are reading the United States into the text. You begin with the misgiven assumption that the US is what is being referenced and then you set about the task of forcing the Bible to mold around your assumption. You are interpreting the evidence to fit what you want the evidence to prove. We call that "Eisogesis" and it is a very subjectie and unreliable method of study. It makes the Bible a servant to the reader.

Why then is the angel telling John things that point specifically to another empire?

The United States is not and has never been an "empire." The Babylonian system being prophesied is a one-world system that has never existed. From the standpoint of pure logistics, there is nowhere to physically flee to. It will be a system and rule that will world-wide. The call is for God's people not to partake of the Babylonian system.

All the verses I submitted were simply to show you that your above comment about “The Bible does not call us to flee,” is inaccurate.

Like I said, all you have done is provide historical accounts where God has called other people to flee from certain countries. You have not provided one shred of evidence that God is calling any of us to flee the United States.

It has called the righteous to flee in specific situations where God’s word is rejected.

Yes, but I did not say God has not called on others in the past. You cannot use those commands given to those people for their unique situation and apply it to us. It just doesn't work that way.

If God was faithful to judge His own people, and has historically proved He will also judge the rest, what makes you think America is above God’s judgment? God is no more a respecter of nations than He is a respecter of persons. Yet it is amazing how many think God will wink at the atrocities of this country which has slaughter and shed the innocent blood of over fifty million unborn on the altar of self-worship and service and convenience.

Not to mention that God has been chastising America with the frequency and severity of birth pangs since our government has pushed for a “New World Order” and aggressively sought to establish a Palestinian State by taking and dividing up the covenant land given to Israel. You, the great defender of Israel should be seeing this clearer than must.

Now we have a President who has made it official, we do not automatically stand with Israel anymore . . . isn’t clear that they that are with are against, or they that don’t help to gather are working to scatter? Or am I guilty again of “stringing verses together to make the Bible appear to say what you want it to say,” because I have recognize the righteous precept of God working in His word and how it extends itself to other applications in life?

When did I say that the US is not under God's judgment?? My refusal to accept this notion that we are called by God to flee the US does not mean that I cannot see God's judgment coming down on the US. You are confusin issues. We are not called to flee at all. We are called to remain and be a light, not run and hide.

You are not going to flee anywhere else that there are not atrocitieis as bad or worse than in the US. The US is not the only nation with problems like abortion, which occurs in greater frequency in many other countries than in the US. Other countries just as anti-Israel, have just as big a problem with alcoholism, homosexuality, teen pregnancy, drugs, and in fact deal with gang/turf wars in ways that make the US look like a picnic in the park. Are those natons under any less judgment than the US?

Separatist attitudes are grossly prevalent in those carnal believers who choose to identify themselves with the various denominations continue to boast themselves to enlightenment and divine approval and endorsement.

Every bit as carnal as this notion that we are supposed to flee the United States.

I will let time and the Spirit of God judge these words of yours. It is clear and evident that we are not in agreement on this matter.

What is clear is that running and hiding your light has never done anything to help others find Christ.

[BlindSeeker]

Hmmm . . . America isn't an empire . . . .

empire -n.

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an aggregate of peoples and territories, often of great extent, under the rule of a single person, oligarchy, or sovereign state

2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any monarchy that for reasons of history, prestige, etc., has an emperor rather than a king as head of state

3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the period during which a particular empire exists

4. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) supreme power; sovereignty Related adj imperial

We call that "Eisogesis" . . .

I guess if you (whoever all you "we" are . . . Baptist?) . . . can give it a classification or title and a definition what you think it is, that means all those who don't think like the "We" are taught must be wrong . . . because you can say they're just eisogesising . . .

You still haven'y left the realm of personal opinion . . . as evident by all your personal comments about me . . . more than about the subject of the OP.

To grab something that God said in the past and make it apply to our situation and time period is a fallacious handling of the text.

You are trying to pin it on America, but you have no solid hermeneutic footing. The mistake you are making is that you are reading the United States into the text. You begin with the misgiven assumption that the US is what is being referenced and then you set about the task of forcing the Bible to mold around your assumption. You are interpreting the evidence to fit what you want the evidence to prove. We call that "Eisogesis" and it is a very subjectie and unreliable method of study. It makes the Bible a servant to the reader.

. . . Like I said, all you have done is provide historical accounts where God has called other people to flee from certain countries. You have not provided one shred of evidence that God is calling any of us to flee the United States.

Every bit as carnal as this notion that we are supposed to flee the United States.

What is clear is that running and hiding your light has never done anything to help others find Christ.

You have done zero convincing on your position and a whole lot of belittling of mine. What is the word for that method of teaching?

[other one]

I finished watching the video, B.S. I agree with the author that islam may very well be the one world religion. I do NOT agree with, or understand, his suggestion that we 'flee'. Americans don't run and we don't quit. What is the point of dispersing around the world? To give America to the enemy? I'm just not getting it.

I really like your Thanksgiving message, MorningGlory. Very nice and fitting for this time of year. Happy Thanksgiving to you! (a day in advance.) And it's appropriate for any time, really...as scripture says we are to be thankful year long.

Flee to where, I wonder? Isn't Islam setting out to have world control?

Looks like the Bush family will be going to Paraguay...... they bought a 98,000 acre ranch there a few years ago.

[other one]

It seems to me that the United States of America died on November 22, 1963,

Is there something more you'd like to expound on JFK's assassination?

Not really seeker.... just a long term observation from an older dude who lived through the transition.

I understand . . . living through one now I think.

Actually I think you may well be right. This nation has always stood beside Israel since the time they declared themselves a country, and I'm not sure the Obama administration still has us there. We do have a really large amount of people in this country who are basically good people, we also have a large number of people in this country who appear to me to be good dedicated Christians. I know our church helps those in need, and supports spreading the word all over the world still....... but I've also noticed that in those time periods when we pressure Israel to give up land that has been promiced so them that bad (very bad) thing seem to happen to our great nation.

I finally got the time to watch the video...

Much of our people are still good basic believers, however our society in general has gone to hell in a hand basket. the driving forces behind our government is now very satanic in nature and does not stand for what a lot of people see us as supposedly being.

I personally can not say for sure that the USA is Mystery Babylon, but I will say that the day that Israel is attacked by Islam and we (the United States of America) does not fully come to her defense........ well I think we should flee the disaster that will follow or resolve ourselves to our fate and just go out as Shilo says being the light of the world.

I will say though, that I can see how the person in the video that this thread is about can think that we may well be Babylon. I have a nephew in new Zeland, maybe we could go there and be close to them. As much as I hate cold, He'll probably send me to Alaska, or Montana. Montana is so out there it might survive.

[Guest man]

Once the balloon goes up, there's no place on earth that will be exempt from the judgments of God.

The wrath of God will not touch the true believers. They may be inconvenienced by it, but it will not come up against them. No matter how bad it gets, God will not forsake His children.

Just something to remember and think about.

[other one]

Once the balloon goes up, there's no place on earth that will be exempt from the judgments of God.

The wrath of God will not touch the true believers. They may be inconvenienced by it, but it will not come up against them. No matter how bad it gets, God will not forsake His children.

Just something to remember and think about.

It's not the rath of God that worries me "man", it's the rath of Satan and his followers, and we are warned that he will be given the authority to make war and overcome the saints. Some of us will die and some of us will go into captivity or slavery........ but it's not Satan that I fear, but myself. How strong am I for i know from personal experience that I can't overcome Satan or at least some of his followers..... Will I have a close relationship with the Holy Spirit? Will that get me through troubled times.

[traveller]

Just to add my 2 cents -

I don't think Brother William (among others here) is talking about fleeing American to get away from her destruction or her trials and tribulations but is rather contemplating if that is what God is saying to do from this specific nation based on Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Lest you share in her sins.

It's one thing to want to run away to get away from a problem or to flee to a safe place. It's quite another to consider it because you believe God said to do it so that you don't become a participate in the wrong doings. Are we supporting the sins of the government by paying in our taxes and accepting any of her benefits?

When God calls people out of a nation isn't it because He's not finished with them yet?

It's not about safety. And, it;s not about hating America. There are brothers and sisters in Christ here, who spread the gospel and who stand up for righteousness. Many of them are leaving, or are making plans to do so. A quick scan on the net will show you that. However - many are also staying. Many of the family don't believe the Lord is speaking to America in that verse. There are also many who are unaware of the times, or who discard them as "not now."

And yes - I think believers will be needed here if that's what God has intended, if there will be any left alive here at that point. But if it is, they will be here because God has called them to be and not because they are "good Americans." Our loyalty should be for the Kingdom, our real home. We have been blessed to be here and that's for sure. We would have been just as blessed had the Lord placed us elsewhere. I believe that.

And one last thing - it's not about fleeing a county and leaving the remaining people behind to fend for themselves. Isn't it a common belief that no one left behind will be left alive?

I'm on the fence on this one. Do I think the Lord has told me to leave? At this point, no. The bigger question is - if He does, will I be strong enough to obey? It is my hope that if He does I will have the wisdom and courage to not even take the time to pack.

End of my 2 cents.

[Guest man]

It's not the rath of God that worries me "man", it's the rath of Satan and his followers,

Luke 12

4

[other one]

It's not the rath of God that worries me "man", it's the rath of Satan and his followers,

Luke 12

4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

I've thought about how I would react if things got really bad. I'm not in the position to up and move. ( I don't think very many people are ) Everybody dies, there's no getting around that. I can't be afraid of death. If I am, then the devil has won. I won't give him the satisfaction. At least I hope I won't.

I can't say for certain what I would do if the situation should ever come up, but I would hope that I have enough faith to sustain me. I would rather go down fighting on familiar ground than to be a stranger in a strange land awaiting the thing that I'm running from.

Who knows?

LoL, it's not dieing that I'm concerned about, it's living in that environment..... who needs that..... but what if God wants me to go through it. It's easy to say bring it on, but it's something else to think aobut watching your kids and grandkids being hurt and what one might do. Like I said, it's me that I fear.

[BlindSeeker]

I personally can not say for sure that the USA is Mystery Babylon, but I will say that the day that Israel is attacked by Islam and we (the United States of America) does not fully come to her defense........ well I think we should flee the disaster that will follow or resolve ourselves to our fate and just go out as Shilo says being the light of the world.

Being the light of the world happens when we are in timely steps of obedience with what the Holy Spirit of God is saying to the church. Therefore, our being the much need light may well be the brightest in our coming out.