The Pre-trib Fallacy

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

I may have posted somewhere that I was unbalanced as to the teachings I received from the day I was born again at age 36 in 1980.

The Rapture of The Church:supposed to be September 1981. I crammed:starting from ZERO. Had never considered Israel nor 1948 nor 1967 nor 1973 re Israel. "This generation..."Forty years. Was very heavily taught and studied the teachings of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture and Mid-Tribulation.

Now for this chain:how about considering all this from the viewpoint of the wheat and the tares? I have studied this off and on. Scripture [at this point] to me is unclear as to whether the wheat or the tares are taken out first. Scripture [to me] supports both possibilities. Remember, "we see through a glass darkly."

"Christianity Today" had [to me] an excellent discussion of this in 1987. Recently reobtained the article. Kenneth Kantzer, now deceased and then CT's Institute Dean gave conclusions {participants included John Walvoord {deceased} and Gleason Archer}. Those three names I gave: to me, some of The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's "giants". Kenneth Kantzer [don't have article right in front of me] gave no final pre/post/amillenial conclusion, and CT apparently has been scrupulous in giving all the various views careful and respectful but sound critiques.

I personally can see downsides to both believing pre and not believing pre. I believe [perhaps] if we consider the wheat/tares Scripture it will help.

[Guest Strservant]

Thank you Bob for your inquiry.

In most of my posts regarding eschatology, I have been fairly docile. That seems to be a thing of the past. When Trinity posted his PROOFS of a pre-trib rapture, THEN the debate got heated. I see his "proofs" as exceptionally deceitful and I have gone through each point to deny his claims. But of course, there have been others who have came on this forum and STRONGLY pushed that hideous doctrine, denying the possibility of any other, and I have often responded "in kind".

Dad ernie,

The statement you made above is simply not true. I have been following these threads VERY closely and every single person I have seen respond to you, with the exception of maybe one, has told you you were out of line for calling someone a heretic and saying that we cannot really know for sure on this specific topic. No one that I have seen has told you it was there view and their view only. The only one doing that is you. I have quit posting on this subject because as Bob said it is not bringing light but heat. I don't see God being glorified in this topic the way it is being discussed, however, I won't stand by while you accuse everyone else of the exact thing that you are the only one guilty of. I have seen your other posts in other topics and I must say I had a great deal of respect for you because I saw a person who it seemed had a great spirit. This topic has diminished that as you seem not to be able to discuss this topic without name calling and telling everyone that doesn't agree with you how stupid they are. Maybe not in those exact words but the implications in your words could be understood by a 3 year old. May God forgive me if I am out of line here. I have prayed for you and myself about this but as I said earlier, I can't let you accuse everyone else whom I have seen tell you that you could be correct of telling you that there is no other way but theirs when it is you doing that.

Respectfully,

Strservant

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AjesusChrist Mathetes,

Now for this chain:how about considering all this from the viewpoint of the wheat and the tares? I have studied this off and on. Scripture [at this point] to me is unclear as to whether the wheat or the tares are taken out first. Scripture [to me] supports both possibilities. Remember, "we see through a glass darkly."

Let's first examine the verses:

Matt 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

First of all, the word "tares" here is not just weeds, but these are "false wheat". While young it is very difficult to determine which is which, the wheat or the false wheat (may I say False Prophets or False Christians so that you might understand?). Anyway, they MUST grow together UNTIL the "wheat" blossoms on the stocks. Then it is possible to determine the difference and the "false wheat" is then collected in bundles and set aside for LATER burning. The reason they are not burnt right away is because a spark from them could set ablaze the whole field.

In Revelation we see where the "saints of God" are called out of Babylon, isolating Babylon from the "Kingdom of God". The reason for this is so that the saints do not partake of their sins, nor the plagues which are to come upon them.

When after the wheat (the saints) are harvested, (the resurrection/rapture) THEN the bundles are set ablaze and destroyed.

This is the essence of the parable of the wheat and tares.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Greetings AjesusChrist Mathetes,

Now for this chain:how about considering all this from the viewpoint of the wheat and the tares? I have studied this off and on. Scripture [at this point] to me is unclear as to whether the wheat or the tares are taken out first. Scripture [to me] supports both possibilities. Remember, "we see through a glass darkly."

Let's first examine the verses:

Matt 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

First of all, the word "tares" here is not just weeds, but these are "false wheat". While young it is very difficult to determine which is which, the wheat or the false wheat (may I say False Prophets or False Christians so that you might understand?). Anyway, they MUST grow together UNTIL the "wheat" blossoms on the stocks. Then it is possible to determine the difference and the "false wheat" is then collected in bundles and set aside for LATER burning. The reason they are not burnt right away is because a spark from them could set ablaze the whole field.

In Revelation we see where the "saints of God" are called out of Babylon, isolating Babylon from the "Kingdom of God". The reason for this is so that the saints do not partake of their sins, nor the plagues which are to come upon them.

When after the wheat (the saints) are harvested, (the resurrection/rapture) THEN the bundles are set ablaze and destroyed.

This is the essence of the parable of the wheat and tares.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

How about also adding in these Scriptures:

<Matthew 3:12>:to me, first the tares

<Matthew 13:48>:to me, first the wheat

<Luke 17:34-36>:to me, first the wheat/tares/Rapture?

Also, i found <Revelation 14:14-20> very interesting. Seems again tares/wheat/Rapture time-sequence unclear. But also:" ...[one] like unto the Son of man..." being told by an angel to reap. This cannot be The Jesus Christ {don't think} since <Matthew 13:41>"The Son of man shall send forth his angels..."

Have had 4 very thought-provoking dreams about these things since 1980. "...we see through a glass darkly..."

But remember:i am a "mathetes"=pupil, learner. Note that i recently became a Junior Member! :t: Hoping to listen more and hear better.

________________________________________________________________________________

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For those of you who haven't seen this, believe you will be blessed:

"The Rapture: What would Jesus DO?"

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/002/33.68.html

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AJesusChrist Mathetes,

Let's see if Rev 14-20 corrolates with the interpretation I have already given:

Rev 14:12-13 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Christians are to "wait patiently" for the Lord, even in the worst of the "great tribulation". This vision to John is what is about to occur, so let's see:

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This is undoubtedly speaking of Jesus since He is wearing a "golden crown":

Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Psalms 21:1-4 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice! 2 Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah. 3 For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head. 4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

and of course we see:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Rev 14:15-16 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Consider:

Matt 13:38-43 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mark 4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

We know that the "tares" are gathered first "and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity".

AND the "harvest is then at the end of the world as we presently know it. So this would be the FIRST RESURRECTION.

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

I am not positive about this one, but it could be the "rapture" which takes place following the resurrection by several days.

Rev 14:18-20 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

I guess i still have those questions from my prior post. Really concerned about <Revelation 14:14> being identified for sure with The Jesus Christ for the reasons i gave [plus others, too].

Maybe I am just too small to understand these things. "The small and the great/the least to the greatest" Scriptures from <Deuteronomy 1:17> thru <Revelation 20:12>: My best guess is that I am a "small ".

Thank you for trying.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AJesuschrist Methetes,

So what other verses might you be thinking of AND WHO do you think it could be wearing a Gold Crown, meaning "authority" and "power", who governs the angels who ARE HIS REAPERS?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Greetings AJesuschrist Methetes,

So what other verses might you be thinking of AND WHO do you think it could be wearing a Gold Crown, meaning "authority" and "power", who governs the angels who ARE HIS REAPERS?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Dear Dad Ernie:

I get so-called "yellow alerts" when Scriptures [to me] don't harmonize 100%. To me, <Matthew 13:41> and <Revelation 6:2> and <Revelation 14:14> do not all "for sure" refer to THE Jesus Christ. I am skeptical. For example, <Revelation 1:13> "...[one] like unto the Son of man..." within the rest of that Scripture says-i believe-this is THE Jesus Christ. <Revelation 6:2> and <Revelation 14:14> don't say that to me.

How massive is the deception that THE Jesus Christ warns us about-"...if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect."<Matthew 24:24>? Don't know about you, but I have considered things like false Rapture(s) and false Second Coming(s). I truly do not know what is next on God's endtime program. Have thoughts, but...<2Thessalonians 2:4-11> indicates to me that the deceived will be sent strong delusion by God to believe that the "man of sin" is God.

Also regard the following from Radio Bible Class' "The Daniel Papers" with a lot of seriousness[though i neither agree or disagree with it]--

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q1207/

.....

Revelation 13 tells us that he will start a war against the saints and blaspheme God. Then his partner, the False Prophet, will make an image of the Beast (Antichrist) and demand that people worship it or die. Jesus and Paul both indicated that this outrageous blasphemy will take place in the restored Jewish temple. The devil himself as the Antifather (the dragon of Rev. 13:4), the Antichrist (the Beast), and the Antispirit (the False Prophet) are the infernal trinity. They will attempt to make the restored Jewish temple their religious headquarters, the place where they will be worshiped.

.....

<Hebrews 12:2>"Looking unto Jesus...". Up to THE/Our/my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to take care of me now and forever. Amen!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings AJesusChrist Mathetes,

IOW, you do not agree that the "antichrist" is just a "spirit", a "spirit" that pervades all the bad guys in Revelation?

IOW, one of the bad guys wears a Golden Crown?

IOW, one of the bad guys sits on a cloud and reaps?

I know what you mean about having your "spirit checked", when you see something "out of order" or "not in line" with the rest of the scriptures, but because they don't say the exact same thing, doesn't mean it is not true. For instance:

Did you know that "baptism saves" - 1 Peter 3:21.

Did you know that Peter was Satan? - Matthew 16:23

If you have been following the thread on the "Trinity", then you know that there are many who believe that Jesus is not God. After all, the word "trinity" is NOT in the Bible. So what do you believe?

I am using "hyperbole" here, in the event you think I believe these things. These are "radical" doctrinal points that many take, because they do not properly exegete the scriptures or have a very poor hermeneutic.

I am sorry Mathetes, your false humility is giving you away. You are much more "studied" than you let on, and I believe you have reached a lot of wrong conclusions. Some of my beliefs aren't exactly Orthodox, but I do believe they are scriptural as I have set out to reveal.

May the Holy Spirit lead YOU into ALL TRUTH, and also KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT IS TO COME.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Trinity]

The antichrist will be a man.