SAVED or ........SAVED then LOST?

[Lanakila]

What does remain in his kindness mean? I am not sure but don't think it means anything about losing salvation. I will get out some commentaries and get back on this one.

[munari]

Look, don't read it with any preconceived notions. Read this chapter for what it says. It says that we, as Gentiles, who were not the "chosen people" must be careful in how we act and in what we do even though we have been "grafted onto" the "chosen people", in other words, been added to the list of those who can be saved. It then goes to show that we can't be too sure of ourselves, because the "chosen people" were cut off from God because of their disbelief in His son. Then, it says, if God will cut off his chosen people that those of us who were later added to the list (those who were "grafted") can also be cut off. This epistle was written to the Church, not to unbelievers.

[Lanakila]

Upon consulting a couple of commentaries my take on this passage is this. Jews were cut off because of unbelief and so can gentiles be cut off because of unbelief. (rejecting the goodness/kindness of God. Born again believers cannot reject the goodness/kindness of God because they already accepted it. This is general and if you can explain the scriptures I gave in Ephesians that say that God will not take away the Holy Spirit that seals us away then I cannot convince you. Perseverence of the Saints (all born again believers) is a doctrine I cannot give up. To many scriptures teach this.

[tsth]

Dear munari,

The Scriptures you are posting, are in reference to the unbelief of the Jews.  And how they were and are the chosen people.  But....the Gentiles became grafted in because of faith, and the Jews too will be brought back in, because of belief eventually.  The Scriptures in questions, are a teaching of humility, and of understanding that just as we were brought in because of disobedience of the Jews, they too will be brought back in, because they are the "Chosen" people.  They too will come back in because of faith.  You are taking those Scriptures that are in reference to the Jewish nation as a whole, and the Christian believers as a whole.  It is not about the loss of salvation.

Romans 11:20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith.  

11:21 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

natural branches meaning the Jews, us being the Gentiles.  He spares no one who does not believe, but there will be a time again of the Jews, to believe.  It will be the end times.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[munari]

Let me recommend another commentary on Salvation to you. Its James Akin's book "The Salvation Controversy". It talks about Perserverance and other views of salvation. It also shows how the RCC takes ALL of the views of salvation and combines them. There are verses in the Bible that suggest that we have been saved, that we are still currently being saved, and that we will be saved. So, in essence, it shows salvation as a process. Please, read the book. Its short (140 pgs) and cheap (about $10). It may give you a new insight and at least give you insight to the Catholic beliefs, allowing you to better refute them.

[Guest Xan]

I didn't know we were debating Catholic beliefs.  I thought we were debating whether or not we will always be saved once we accept salvation.

[munari]

I'm Catholic, so I present Catholic beliefs and I'm presenting my source. You're Messianic, so you'll present things you learn from Rabbi. Other Protestants will present things as they were taught by their Protestant denomination. Evangelicals will present what they read for themselves in the Bible.

Is it wrong that I present a Catholic author who speaks on this topic? It falls within what we are discussing.

[Guest Xan]

It may give you a new insight and at least give you insight to the Catholic beliefs, allowing you to better refute them.

What you said here made it sound like we are debating Catholic vs. Protestant topics.  There are many Protestants who bellieve in OSNAS, it's not just for Catholics anymore.

[munari]

OHHHH... No, I said that not on the Once Saved Always Saved topic, I was speaking specifically about the book. The book is a by Catholic author and so gives the Catholic view. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough.

I at least knew what I meant    

[Guest astralis]

I didn't know we were debating Catholic beliefs.