Should Churches speak to poltical issues of the da

[amor]

There should be no one but Christians in our government. The church has turned this country over to the communists by there apathy, and non committment.

Isa 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(KJV)

Really! They must be a pretty inept bunch of communists if this is true, as the USA still seems to be a place with rather severe divisions between rich and poor. If these communists control everything why haven't they done something about righting these injustices, and why haven't they done something about overturning those pesky emargoes on Comrade Fidel. Perhaps, you are confusing Communism with Capitalism both words that start with "c" and have rather a lot of letters in them!

Returning to the issue at hand, perhaps these whinging churches should say what they like and pay their taxes, like everyother institution does. "No representation without taxation" - that's a good old American principle isn't it.

[Scudbuddy]

I despise communism. I have smuggled bibles into communistic countries. I know pastors who were martyred because of that evil system. Whenever they take control of a country, they do not right any wrongs. They do not provide justice between the poor and the rich. They make everybody poor. They kill or imprison both classes. Not one Communistic country has done differently.

As far as making all things equal in this country between the rich and poor by governmental means. Only if you think that mans nature is fair and self-sacrificing. Only if you think it is right to reward laziness and punish entrepreneurship. Only if you think freedom is a dirty word, and tyranny one to be admired.

In this country immigrants come from all over to experience the American dream. The ones that decide to use freedom and capitalism to its full intention do very well. Those who listen to the liberals who tell them America owes them a living never rise out of poverty. Which is why I also despise liberalism and socialism. It is the new slavery. It puts men in bondage to the system, and robs him of enjoying the rewards of hard work.

Once I moved to Nevada during the winter. There were no jobs to be had. Did I apply for welfare to feed my family? Heavens no! I looked for the need and met it. I noticed that alot of sidewalks needed shoveling. I did not even ask people if I could shovel their sidewalk of snow. Some never knew who did it. But when those who did notice it saw me doing it, they asked me why. I told them it was to "Bless them in the name of the Lord!" People shoved money into my hands. I made more money doing that than any job I had ever had.

Freedom, hard work, know-how and faithfullness seperate us from poverty. Not some God forsaken governmental hand out program. Many black leaders are beginning to notice this and are teaching their people to not be enslaved to the new slave master. Dr. Fred Price has rescued over 5,000 of his congregants from it, and their standard of living has risen dramatically for it.

God Bless America, its hard workers, and our soldiers in arms who keep us free from the tyranny of the Oppressor. And God give America the brains to not undermine their sacrifice by electing the whining liberals of the land.

George Bush for President!

[amor]

In this country immigrants come from all over to experience the American dream. The ones that decide to use freedom and capitalism to its full intention do very well. Those who listen to the liberals who tell them America owes them a living never rise out of poverty. Which is why I also despise liberalism and socialism. It is the new slavery. It puts men in bondage to the system, and robs him of enjoying the rewards of hard work.

God Bless America, its hard workers, and our soldiers in arms who keep us free from the tyranny of the Oppressor. And God give America the brains to not undermine their sacrifice by electing the whining liberals of the land.

George Bush for President!

Given your respect for the hard working man who has made it by his own efforts, it seems strange that you should support George Bush who has made it primarily because he comes from an influential political dynasty. Although given the fact that Kerry and Gore also had similar pedigrees, perhaps you go for Bush because there is no real self-made alternative. Do you have the same contempt for those who live in luxury on the money made by their forebears as you do for those who may at times be dependent upon the state?

[Scudbuddy]

In this country immigrants come from all over to experience the American dream. The ones that decide to use freedom and capitalism to its full intention do very well. Those who listen to the liberals who tell them America owes them a living never rise out of poverty. Which is why I also despise liberalism and socialism. It is the new slavery. It puts men in bondage to the system, and robs him of enjoying the rewards of hard work.

God Bless America, its hard workers, and our soldiers in arms who keep us free from the tyranny of the Oppressor. And God give America the brains to not undermine their sacrifice by electing the whining liberals of the land.

George Bush for President!

Given your respect for the hard working man who has made it by his own efforts, it seems strange that you should support George Bush who has made it primarily because he comes from an influential political dynasty. Although given the fact that Kerry and Gore also had similar pedigrees, perhaps you go for Bush because there is no real self-made alternative. Do you have the same contempt for those who live in luxury on the money made by their forebears as you do for those who may at times be dependent upon the state?

Somehow, amongst Christians there is this hatred toward the rich. I guess it is justified by their "burden for the poor."

Jesus did not espouse class warfare. He asked us to judge men by their fruits. A rich man provided the grave for him. Throughout the NT we find references to the rich. Though some of it warns them to remember the poor, and be wary of what riches can do to the soul, we find no verse that stereotypes rich people as "evil", and yet your post presumes evil on these people.

I know poor people who are evil. Yet that does not classify the poor as evil. Amor, you have fallen for the classic struggle between the haves and the have-nots. This struggle ignores the good, and only sees the evil. We as Christians must overcome this. It is jealousy to participate in this struggle from the poors side. It is arrogancy to do so from the richs side. Which one do you think gets you to hell?

I have ministered in Third World countries. There is not one saint there who would not trade places with the rich, and yet are thankful for what God has done in their lives. And by the way, by their standards, you are rich. So the standard you hold for the rich can be held against you in their eyes. How does that feel?

All four candidates in this election have money. So what? What matters is is the policies they will make to better the poor and the rich alike. Socialism is the new slavery. We are to teach the man how to fish. Not give him the fish. Socialism presumes permanent ignorance on the poor. Capitalism presumes you have the right and responsibility to pull yourself up by the bootstraps and make something of yourself. But you do not have the guarantee of success. All of it depends on you, your hardwork, and the circumstances around you.

Socialism guarantees that those circumstances will never favor you. It kills the economies around it. It makes all poor. Germany and France are figureing this out as we speak. I just talked to some german tourist who told me the unemployment rate there is horrible, and that there is no money to pay for all the programs. Now everybody is hurting. In fact the reason they were taking their vacation in the US was because it was cheaper here than in Germany.

Healthcare sounds better in Socialist countries since it is guaranteed. But talk to the citizens and a different story comes about.

1.When you are real sick, you don't go to the government doctors. Not as well trained, too busy, and you are less likely to get better.

2.Operations that you might need like right away are scheduled months later. Even Canada is suffering this problem.

3.Canadiens have told me time and again they come down here to get their treatment if it needs to be done right away.

4.And when a Canadien uses his healthcare system, he is taxed again for it.

But you go on espousing Socialism and class warfare. Preach the goodness of giving away the riches money to help some poor person. In the meantime, how much money do you actually give to the poor to help them out of their circumstance? 10% of your gross income? 20%? 30% Or do you just want to be forced to do it? If forced, like most Socialist countries, 30% of your income will be only a dream you have as you kick yourself for ever wanting such a system in your life. If you don't believe me, just ask those enslaved in the Socialist/Communist system.

So I will take Bush any day over Kerry who espouses Socialism and high taxes. (Which comes to no surprise since he met with the North Vietnamese during our conflict with them in Paris in the early 70's, and has always stayed true to his friends. :x: )

[Scudbuddy]

Amor,

One other thing. I know a man who is so rich, he owns 7 yachts. What would be your advice to him? He considers himself a Christian. Is he evil?

[His son]

Yes agree with ALL of the above statements -very well articulated.

Given that there is a dissolution of Judeo Christian values in our culture and institutions we do need to galvanize and work together to be a clear unequivocal voice for the values of our Faith.

No doubt.

My question is that when we open the door to having churches become a forum for political issues; and subsequently watch dog groups arise to identify what churches are violating the 'tax examept status" - is this not a subtle progression towards a polic state??? :x:

Maybe Tako's point is well taken - churches should pay taxes and then they could be at liberty to espouse what they wanted to.

And then again how does it ( political side-taking) fit in with 'the great commission'?

Blessings- Sachi

Paying taxes would not set the churches free to expound polotics, they are using many avenues to try to shut God out of our lives. When they get to their goal you will be imprisoned for even talking about Jesus Christ.

[amor]

Amor,

One other thing. I know a man who is so rich, he owns 7 yachts. What would be your advice to him? He considers himself a Christian. Is he evil?

If your friend can get a camel throgh this

he should be OK, if not he may have problems. Perhaps you should ask your friends why he needs seven yachts and suggest that he my find a way uf unburdening himself , by converting them into resources that might be of some benefit to those with real material needs

[amor]

Socialism guarantees that those circumstances will never favor you. It kills the economies around it. It makes all poor. Germany and France are figureing this out as we speak. I just talked to some german tourist who told me the unemployment rate there is horrible, and that there is no money to pay for all the programs. Now everybody is hurting. In fact the reason they were taking their vacation in the US was because it was cheaper here than in Germany.

Healthcare sounds better in Socialist countries since it is guaranteed. But talk to the citizens and a different story comes about.

1.When you are real sick, you don't go to the government doctors. Not as well trained, too busy, and you are less likely to get better.

2.Operations that you might need like right away are scheduled months later. Even Canada is suffering this problem.

3.Canadiens have told me time and again they come down here to get their treatment if it needs to be done right away.

4.And when a Canadien uses his healthcare system, he is taxed again for it.

enslaved in the Socialist/Communist system.

I live in a society with one of these evil health systems. It means I can go to bed at night without worrying about the health of myself or those arround me. Knowing that whatever may happen I won't be crippled with debts that I can't pay.

[sachi]

Amen!

But we are moving this discussion to another thread of : socialism versus free enterprize.

I f someone is interested they could start e new topic on that - it looks like a promising discussion.

I raise the original question again - particulalry given the diversity of the responses above - should the church be a forum for politics? Is that part of the Great Commission?

Blessings- Sachi

[Trinity]

Socialism is the first step into communism. This country will be a communistic county in 35-45 years. We keep on getting fed lies (mostly by Democrats and Socialistic goups and third parties (not anythird party that is posted on the site that i know of))