Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[Guest shiloh357]

This is continuation of a discussion in Doctrinal with A Muslim who whishes to discuss the Deity of Jesus. He/she is no longer able to post in the Doctrinal forum. Others who were participating in the discussion, please feel free to copy and repost your comments in this thread. Everyone is invited to participate.

Does the word son of God mean God? If so, why were many people in the OT and the NT called sons of God?

2Sa 7:14 I(God) will be his father, and he(Solomon) shall be my son (I put the words in paranthesis)

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

You need to understand that Hebrew is very nuanced and there are terms that while they appear to the same on the surface, are applied differentlly in different contexts.

The phrase "son of" can in certain context refer to a paternal relationship between a human boy and his earthly father. But it is used to simply refer to a earthly man. However, it is also used to denote equality. Jesus once referred to two of His disciples, James and John as the "sons of thunder." It was used to equate their intolerant, violent attitudes with the violent sound of thunder. In the same way, a famous Jewish Zealot was known as "The Son of a star" (Simon Bar Kochba). It was an attempt to equate him with the Messiah and is a veiled reference to the star of Jacob a common messianic reference. When the phrase "Son of God" is applied to Jesus it is equating Jesus with Deity. Jesus applies to Himself denoting Himself as being of the same essential nature as God the Father. Ergo, Jesus is proclaiming Himself to be God.

In reference to Solomon, the Hebrew connotation refers to how God will treat Solomon. The idea is not that Solomon will literally be the son of God, but that God will treat Solomon with the same kindness that a man would treat his own son.

As for Matt. 5:9 it is again, a figure of speech. It refers to how people will regard them. Those who are peacemakers, who are conduits of God's shalom shall be regarded by their peers as if they were the very offspring of God.

So let's refer back to John 17:22:

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;

For the disciples to be one, are they one because of human beings or one because they are believers? If they were one because they are human beings, then there is no need to restrict the oneness to them, as you and I will be in this oneness, so this oneness is not oneness because they are the same being, but a oneness of aim. And that's what the Christian commentator who believes in the Trinity says.

In your initial comment you quoted Dr. Constable as saying: "Jesus did not mean that He and the Father were the same person of the Godhead."

Now you are saying that the commentator is saying that they are not one in being but one in aim. I responded to your previous statement in agreeig with the commentator. They are not one in person. However they are one in being. Being and personage are two different things. "Being" refers to Deity. "Son" refers to personage. Jesus is a different person than the Father but they are both God. God is one being expressed in three persons. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all three are God in essence, though they are three different persons. You clearly cannnot handle Dr. Constable's remarks correctly.

And that's what he actually did, because if he hadn't done so, the Jews would have had the right to stone him as they know well through their books what blasphemy means, and at the same time it's clear that the Jews never understood that the fore coming Messiah is God, because if they did, then Jesus must have told them the verses from the OT telling that the Messiah is God (if any). But Jesus didn't.

No, Jesus did not correct their understanding. He did not tell them He was not claiming to be God. They took up stones to kill Him, but Jesus did not let them stone Him because it was not yet His time to die. That was in fact, His deity in action. They tried to stone Him twice and even tried to throw Him off of a cliff, but Jesus did not permit it because it was not His time to die. Jesus did not permit them to do anything to Him until after His last Passover meal.

So actually he didn't correct their misunderstanding according to your exegesis, since he left them confused thinking that he is blaspheming which is well known in their belief to be a sin with death punishment, which means that you don't have the right to blame the Jews as they clearly understood they are against a false prophet claiming to be God, which I don't believe in Jesus (Peace be upon him).

I don't blame "the Jews" because "the Jews" didn't do anything to Jesus. I blame the religious leadership who knew who Jesus was and hated Him all the more for it. They were the ones who conspired to kill Jesus, not "the Jews." They had to have His trial in secret because "the Jews" hailed Him as a prophet and they feared the people would lynch and kill them for trying to kill Jesus. Far from being a false prophet, Jesus proved by word and deed that He is God and He is still God today and is seated at the right hand of the Father and will return again as God in power and in glory.

[Guest shiloh357]

You mean his miracles, Jesus clearly answers you:" I can do nothing by myself", and when he talked about false prophets, he said that they would come with miracles, and he kept on praying to God before raising Lazarus from the dead, and Elijah rose people from the dead.

Jesus lived a life that was dependent on God the Father. Jesus was fully human and fully God and that is where you get confused. Jesus' life as a man was to provide us with a righteous model to emulate. Jesus, in His humanity depended on His Father, but Jesus as God forgave sins, and raised people from the dead. Jesus did those things under His own power. Jesus, in His humanity, prayed, and defeated temptation as a man in the power of the Holy Spirit. He dealt with alot of issues in His humanity in order to show us how to live. That in no way detracts from the fact that Jesus also dealt with other issues as God.

Even in His death. Jesus gave up His spirit. He did not die from the effects of crucifixion. He died at the moment He chose to. He was in complete control of the events surrounding His crucifixion. He was not victim or a martyr. He was a holy Sacricfice of God the Father for the sins of all mankind and through Jesus and Jesus alone is there redemption from sin and eternal life.

Elijah did not raise anyone from the under His own power. Jesus did pray, but Jesus prayer was not for Lazarus to be raised but for the people looking on. Jesus purposely allowed Lazarus to die in order to raise him from the dead. Jesus did not ask for the power to do so. The power was His to exercized and He did so.

And why did Jesus wait till he comes in a dream to say these words? Why didn't he say it explicitly when he was on Earth? Also it is worthy to note that many early church fathers realized the revelations as non-canonical.

He did not come to anyone in a dream. Jesus revealed His deity while on earth. Everytmie Jesus said that He was the "Son of God" He was declaring His deity. The Bible uses the phrase "Son of" to denote Eqaulity with God whenever that phrase is used of Jesus. There are "sons of God" (such as Adam), however there is only one who is "THE Son of God." It is used differently and in a unique way when applied to Jesus. Jesus' had already demonstrated His power over sin, nature, death and Hell. Only God exercizes that power.

But what about the context Jesus used this verse? Did Jesus mean that they are really gods

As stated earlier, the word "elohim" or "gods" as it is translated in Ps. 82 refers to human magistrates/judges. Jesus is not telling the pharisees that they are deities in miniature. Rather, He quotes a verses that condemns corrupt leaders and magistrates and applies it to them. He is not calling the "gods" in the absolute sense.

I am not talking about the Hebrew word as the meaning you give can't be applied on our situation.

I am applying the Hebrew word elohim exactly the way Jesus applied it.

What enemies Jesus applies his citation to them? He said about these "gods": "unto whom the word of God came". Sorry I cannot grasp what you are trying to say here.

Psalm 82 is referencing corrupt leaders of Israel and Jesus rightly applies that Psalm to the corrupt religious leaders in the Sanhedrin whom he is confronting in John 10.

So either the Jews were true and won the debate by proving that Jesus was blaspheming, or that Jesus was really god but he was careless about giving reasonable the Jewish concerns about his blasphemy and instead he mocks them, and I don't accept this for God.

Jesus' in calling Himself the Son of God was claiming to be God and they understood Him plainly and that is why they accused Him of blasphemy. Jesus did not attempt to correct their understanding. Jesus was not blaspheming because Jesus really was God. Your problem is that you don't understand God. You are trying to use human logic to reason this instead of believing the words of Jesus who claimed over and over and over again to be God.

Why didn't Jesus prove to the Jews through their scripture that the Messiah is God to convince them and convince all who come after?

Jesus fulfilled every Scripture relative to His inital coming to earth.

In fact, most Jews DID receive Jesus. It was the corrupt leadership in the Sanhedrin that rejected Him. In fact, there is evidence in the NT that they KNEW Jesus was exactly who He said He was and they hated Him all the more for it. They enjoyed a lot of perks and favors from Rome and a Messiah was the last thing they needed as a Messiah would naturally challenge the authority of Rome and perhaps bring about a war or at least a much stronger and painful Toman presence in Judea. It may not have been so much a case of Jesus' failure to prove Himself, but rather a stubborn refusal on the part of His enemies to accept Him.

As I said, miracles prove nothing, the Jews have seen miracles through their prophets, even pagans and false prophets claim miracles as Jesus himself says. Again are these magistrates real gods?

Acutally Jesus performed miracles that none fo the prophets performed. The Talmud prophesied that three miracles would be performed by the Messiah and these three miracles would be a sign of the Messiah: Healing lepers, giving sight to the blind and casting evil spirits of dumbness.

Why is it a misapplication? It is the same expression for the relationship between Jesus and the Father and between human beings by the supposed same author. You consider it incomparable because this is your belief, but you provided no evidence for this belief.

It is a misapplication because even though the expression is the same, the experience is different. Jesus and the Father are both God. They share the same essential nature. We do not share that nature with the Father nor with Jesus, so our experience cannot be seen as the same.

When the New Testament uses the term "in Christ" or "in Him" to denote our relationship with Christ it is one of identification. When used of the Father's relationship with Jesus is it one of a unified essential nature. It is not something the human mind can completely grasp, but the difference between the two cannot be more obviously different. You are parsing over words, but are failing to understand the differences in connotation.

[A Muslim]

Thanks Shiloh for opening this thread, I was about to do it but you preceded me.

Now let's organize our topics first since it seems they have been scattered within our conversation:

1. The word " I and the Father are one" and whether it proves Jesus' deity or not.

2. The context of John 10:30-39 and what it proves.

3. " I am in the Father and the Father is in me" and whether it proves Jesus' deity or not.

4. The evidence you gave that Jesus is God through his miracles, forgiving sins, being called the son of God,...etc.

For anyone who wants to go into the conversation, it starts from post 41 here:

Now as for the first topic, your last reply was:

In your initial comment you quoted Dr. Constable as saying: "Jesus did not mean that He and the Father were the same person of the Godhead."

Now you are saying that the commentator is saying that they are not one in being but one in aim. I responded to your previous statement in agreeig with the commentator. They are not one in person. However they are one in being. Being and personage are two different things. "Being" refers to Deity. "Son" refers to personage. Jesus is a different person than the Father but they are both God. God is one being expressed in three persons. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all three are God in essence, though they are three different persons. You clearly cannnot handle Dr. Constable's remarks correctly.

Well, I have actually addressed that point through John 17:22 that Jesus wasn't talking about deity at all here but aim the same as disciples, look at what Dr. Constable said again:

In short, this verse does not say that Jesus was claiming to be of the same essence as God. Here He claimed to function in union with the Father. However the context and other statements in this Gospel show that His unity with the Father extended beyond a functional unity and did involve essential metaphysical unity.

So he is saying that this verse in particular is not talking about essence although other verses did, but just as a functional unity.

Let's move on to the second point which was talking about the context of conversation between Jesus and the Jews, you said:

No, Jesus did not correct their understanding. He did not tell them He was not claiming to be God.

This wasn't the way to correct understanding, but the way was to prove to them through the OT that the Messiah is God. If they were corrupt leaders, people who will come after and read the gospels are not. So it seems Jesus didn't care about all those who will come after, and this is impossible in case of Jesus.

The context doesn't agree with you, the Jews accused him with blasphemy of saying he is god, he answered them with a verse calling other people "gods" and compares this case with himself.

Then you said:

As stated earlier, the word "elohim" or "gods" as it is translated in Ps. 82 refers to human magistrates/judges. Jesus is not telling the pharisees that they are deities in miniature. Rather, He quotes a verses that condemns corrupt leaders and magistrates and applies it to them. He is not calling the "gods" in the absolute sense.

The context doesn't agree with what you say, the Jews accused him with blasphemy of saying he is god, he answered them with a verse calling other people "gods" and compares this case with himself, so it's clear that he was answering their claim not mocking them. If the case that Jesus meant the meaning of elohim as judges, why didn't the writer of the NT use the word judges instead of gods? According to your case, Jesus is using a logical fallacy as the Jews are talking about Jesus calling himself god, and Jesus answers them with a verse telling about judges, and compares himself with these judges, which is totally irrelevant.

Next you said:

Jesus' in calling Himself the Son of God was claiming to be God and they understood Him plainly and that is why they accused Him of blasphemy. Jesus did not attempt to correct their understanding. Jesus was not blaspheming because Jesus really was God. Your problem is that you don't understand God. You are trying to use human logic to reason this instead of believing the words of Jesus who claimed over and over and over again to be God.

First of all, God gave us mind to understand Him and understand His scriptures and seek the truth. I use my mind to understand what God is saying, and if it was proven through true scriptures from God saying explicitly that Jesus is God I will say it, but actually this wasn't proven neither through true scripture nor even through the Gospels, so why I believe it?

Back to the verse in question, when the Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, his answer was that he quoted a verse from Psalms calling mere men gods, then he says: 'If these people were called gods, why do you blame me for being called son of God', so he is clearly saying that as these people who were called gods are not really gods, he didn't mean to blaspheme, but he compares his case with a case of mere mortals. If he really wanted to affirm their conclusion, he would have quoted one of the verses in the OT you use to prove the Messiah is God (although they really don't like Isa 9:6 to say yes I am really God, but he didn't, just he said other people were called gods by scriptures although they were not, so why do you condemn me of blasphemy being called son of God?

I don't blame "the Jews" because "the Jews" didn't do anything to Jesus. I blame the religious leadership who knew who Jesus was and hated Him all the more for it. They were the ones who conspired to kill Jesus, not "the Jews." They had to have His trial in secret because "the Jews" hailed Him as a prophet and they feared the people would lynch and kill them for trying to kill Jesus.

So the Jews hailed him as a prophet not as being God, and that's what I believe those who followed Jesus contemporary him believed, no more than a prophet. If Jesus wants to prove to the Jews that he is not blaspheming, he must give a scriptural evidence that he is God, but actually he didn't (according to your view as it's so clear that he denies it through his quotation), so actually he didn't care about teaching people. What is the difference between your view and pagan and false prophet views then? We are supposed to take our belief through scriptures not miracles, since scriptures judge these claims whether they are true or not, but it seems that Jesus (according to your view), who told them to search the scriptures didn't care about proving the main belief from their scripture although he used it in other minor cases.

In fact, most Jews DID receive Jesus. It was the corrupt leadership in the Sanhedrin that rejected Him. In fact, there is evidence in the NT that they KNEW Jesus was exactly who He said He was and they hated Him all the more for it.

Yes, I agree with you, but how did they receive him? By believing in the Trinity?

Edited November 25, 2010 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

Moving on to the third topic:

3. " I am in the Father and the Father is in me" and whether it proves Jesus' deity or not.

You said:

It is a misapplication because even though the expression is the same, the experience is different. Jesus and the Father are both God. They share the same essential nature. We do not share that nature with the Father nor with Jesus, so our experience cannot be seen as the same.

Sorry but I cannot see how this answers my question, you are just stating your belief which is not an evidence against me, as this belief needs evidence in itself. You may believe it and it may be a case that we cannot grasp, but we need first to prove that this belief is really true through scriptures, if it is, then your argument will be understood, but you need first to prove it.

Moving to the fourth argument talking about evidence that Jesus is God, the first was about the word "son of God" and whether it means that Jesus is God or not:

Does the word son of God mean God? If so, why were many people in the OT and the NT called sons of God?

2Sa 7:14 I(God) will be his father, and he(Solomon) shall be my son (I put the words in paranthesis)

Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

You need to understand that Hebrew is very nuanced and there are terms that while they appear to the same on the surface, are applied differentlly in different contexts.

The phrase "son of" can in certain context refer to a paternal relationship between a human boy and his earthly father. But it is used to simply refer to a earthly man. However, it is also used to denote equality. Jesus once referred to two of His disciples, James and John as the "sons of thunder." It was used to equate their intolerant, violent attitudes with the violent sound of thunder. In the same way, a famous Jewish Zealot was known as "The Son of a star" (Simon Bar Kochba). It was an attempt to equate him with the Messiah and is a veiled reference to the star of Jacob a common messianic reference. When the phrase "Son of God" is applied to Jesus it is equating Jesus with Deity. Jesus applies to Himself denoting Himself as being of the same essential nature as God the Father. Ergo, Jesus is proclaiming Himself to be God.

In reference to Solomon, the Hebrew connotation refers to how God will treat Solomon. The idea is not that Solomon will literally be the son of God, but that God will treat Solomon with the same kindness that a man would treat his own son.

As for Matt. 5:9 it is again, a figure of speech. It refers to how people will regard them. Those who are peacemakers, who are conduits of God's shalom shall be regarded by their peers as if they were the very offspring of God.

So the word "son of God" in itself can be applied to an earthly man, meaning that it is not an independent evidence for deity. You apply it to Jesus as equating him with deity based on your belief. Your faith is not enough to prove it, so you must give another evidence restricting the meaning of the word in case of Jesus that it means he is God.

Your evidence was:

The Bible uses the phrase "Son of" to denote Eqaulity with God whenever that phrase is used of Jesus. There are "sons of God" (such as Adam), however there is only one who is "THE Son of God." It is used differently and in a unique way when applied to Jesus. Jesus' had already demonstrated His power over sin, nature, death and Hell. Only God exercizes that power.

Being the son of God can mean that he was the chosen one among other sons or that he is the best one, doesn't necessarily tell that he is God in nature. Note that Jesus never said "I am God" in the Bible although he sometimes used the word son of God which is an interesting note regarding the above topic on John 10:3-39, when the Jews accused him of calling himself god, he didn't use the same word for himself although he cited a verse talking about people called gods, but when it came to himself he didn't say I am called god, but son of God. Why didn't he call himself God in this situation although all the arguments are using the word god? Jesus even said it by his own tongue, the Father is the only true God (john 17:3), note, he said the Father not God, which disproves the Trinity as it is talking about the Father only who is the only true God, meaning that he is not God he is not the Father unless you adopt that heresy saying that the father is the son is the holy spirit.

Next we move on to another evidence you use which is miracles and forgiving sins, your last reply says:

Jesus, in His humanity depended on His Father, but Jesus as God forgave sins, and raised people from the dead. Jesus did those things under His own power. Jesus, in His humanity, prayed, and defeated temptation as a man in the power of the Holy Spirit. He dealt with alot of issues in His humanity in order to show us how to live. That in no way detracts from the fact that Jesus also dealt with other issues as God.

Again, I answer you by a scripture, you answer me by stating your belief with no evidence, you still apply standards with no evidence, Jesus never said that he has a human and a divine nature, but this was a conclusion made by later Christians to hold verses talking about Jesus' humanity with their belief in his deity which needs evidence. So it seems we are going in a circle, I ask you why Jesus is God, you say because he made miracles, I answer you men made miracles and Jesus said he can do nothing by himself, you answer but Jesus is God and has human nature, so when he was doing miracles he was actually doing it under his own power because he is God. I ask you again, what is your prove that Jesus is God? We still need evidence not statement of faith.

Acutally Jesus performed miracles that none fo the prophets performed. The Talmud prophesied that three miracles would be performed by the Messiah and these three miracles would be a sign of the Messiah: Healing lepers, giving sight to the blind and casting evil spirits of dumbness.

Again, so what? Do you think that the writers of the Talmud believed that the Messiah will be God? Actually it insults Jesus and Mary. Btw, Moses performed claims that Jesus never performed, does it mean that Moses was God?

Even in His death. Jesus gave up His spirit. He did not die from the effects of crucifixion. He died at the moment He chose to. He was in complete control of the events surrounding His crucifixion.

How could Jesus be in complete control of events when he blames God for forsaking him?

Elijah did not raise anyone from the under His own power. Jesus did pray, but Jesus prayer was not for Lazarus to be raised but for the people looking on. Jesus purposely allowed Lazarus to die in order to raise him from the dead. Jesus did not ask for the power to do so. The power was His to exercized and He did so.

Neither Elijah did Jesus do it under their own power. Jesus clearly says: "I thank you Father because you heard from me so that people believe". So if the Father didn't hear from him, could he have done so? Of course not, because he does so by the Father's power not by his. If Jesus knew that his action was a proof that he is God as you try to say, he needn't pray to the Father as his action would have been enough and he needn't God's power. So why did he pray? To show to people that he is sent by the Father and he emphasizes on thanking the Father for hearing from him. He knows that it is not his power but God's power. He is a prophet sent by the Father and he performs miracles by the Father's power not by his. Again, "I can do nothing by myself.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, I have actually addressed that point through John 17:22 that Jesus wasn't talking about deity at all here but aim the same as disciples, look at what Dr. Constable said again:

In short, this verse does not say that Jesus was claiming to be of the same essence as God. Here He claimed to function in union with the Father. However the context and other statements in this Gospel show that His unity with the Father extended beyond a functional unity and did involve essential metaphysical unity.

So he is saying that this verse in particular is not talking about essence although other verses did, but just as a functional unity.

Even if you can make the argument that this verse does not support a claim of deity on Jesus' part, but is a claim of oneness on the basis of functional unity. THAT is not an argument against Jesus' Deity and I do not believe that Dr. Constable meant his words to be used the way you have used them.

Furthermore, just because Dr. Constable views the verse as referencing functional unity does not mean that all Christian scholars share his view.

This wasn't the way to correct understanding, but the way was to prove to them through the OT that the Messiah is God. If they were corrupt leaders, people who will come after and read the gospels are not.

Doesn't matter. Competent exegesis requires that we examine what the text and/or original words being spoken to a particular audience meant to that audience.

So it seems Jesus didn't care about all those who will come after, and this is impossible in case of Jesus.

No, it means that Jesus engaged His enemies. You are insulting the intelligence of those who will read the account in John as if they are incapable of understanding what Jesus was trying to say. Jesus claimed to be God, claimed to be Deity and did not shrink back from that claim. He did not try change their understanding at all. He made the same claim at His trial and they accused Him of blasphemy there as well.

Jesus however remained silent. Again the High Priest addressed Him. "In the name of the ever-living God," he said, "I now put you on your oath. Tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." "I am He," replied Jesus. "But I tell you that, later on, you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND of Omnipotence, AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY." (Mat 26:63-64)

In fact, Jesus takes on two titles: Son of God AND the Son of Man. He uses the common Messianic title and claims to be Deity at His trial. The High Priest tears His robe and they accuse Him of blasphemy and their verdict is that He is to be put to death.

The context doesn't agree with you, the Jews accused him with blasphemy of saying he is god, he answered them with a verse calling other people "gods" and compares this case with himself.

Wrong. Jesus used a verse from a Psalm that accused them of being corrupt leaders. YOU are the one violating context. You are ignoring the context of the Psalm the verse is found in. The context of John 10 is all about multiple claims by Jesus to be God, and not just the two or three verses you have decided to focus on. Clearly you have not paid any attention to the entire context of John 10.

If the case that Jesus meant the meaning of elohim as judges, why didn't the writer of the NT use the word judges instead of gods?

Because the writer is Jewish and rendered a correct literal translation of the verse. It is the connotation of the word that is important. And understanding of the nuances of Hebrew and how those nuances must carry over in the mind of the reader is important.

The context doesn't agree with what you say, the Jews accused him with blasphemy of saying he is god, he answered them with a verse calling other people "gods" and compares this case with himself, so it's clear that he was answering their claim not mocking them.

Jesus is making the classic rabbinic argument of lesser to greater in John 10:34-36. If these men who are mortal and wicked can be called "elohim" (because they stand to represent God before the people) for a limited period of time, it is not blasphemy for Jesus to call Himself the Son of God because He preexisted the world ("before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58) with the Father. Jesus did not commit blasphemy, He didn't deny He was calling Himself God and infact went all the way to His trial claiming to be God.

According to your case, Jesus is using a logical fallacy as the Jews are talking about Jesus calling himself god, and Jesus answers them with a verse telling about judges, and compares himself with these judges, which is totally irrelevant.

Sorry, but you really don't understand the verse and are missing entirely the point Jesus is making.

First of all, God gave us mind to understand Him and understand His scriptures and seek the truth. I use my mind to understand what God is saying, and if it was proven through true scriptures from God saying explicitly that Jesus is God I will say it, but actually this wasn't proven neither through true scripture nor even through the Gospels, so why I believe it?

Jesus is called God in both Old and New Testaments. (Is. 7:14, 9:6-7; Jer. 23:5-6; Mic. 5:2, Malachi 3:1-2, Psalm 45:1, 6-7, Psalm 110:1-3, Zechariah 6:12-13, John 1:1-3, Jn. 3:18, Jn. 9:35-37Col. 1:15-18; 2:8-10;

Furthermore, Jesus in John 10 also claims to be able to impart Eternal Life. Eternal Life is something only God possesses and thus something only God can give. The problem in how you handle John 10 is that you are picking out one small part of John 10. Look at everything Jesus says:

• Jesus refers to God has His Father and Himself as God's Son - Blasphemy in Jewish theology.
  
• Jesus claims to have personal power over death (vv. 17-18)
  
• He claims to be the only Way to of salvation (vv. 1-9)
  
• He claims to be able to impart Eternal Life (vv. 28-30)

Jesus said too much for Him to be misunderstood and the verse He quoted from Psalm 82 was not an attempt to correct their understanding or deny His Deity.

[Guest shiloh357]

So the Jews hailed him as a prophet not as being God, and that's what I believe those who followed Jesus contemporary him believed, no more than a prophet.

Not true. Keep in mind that they saw Him as the Messiah as is evidence in John 12 when they hailed as King Messiah. So it was quite a bit more than just being a prophet. He did operate in the office of prophet, but He was far, far, far more than a prophet even by them. They may not have completely understood that He was also God, but His closest followers as is evidenced in their epistles later came to understand that Jesus was indeed God.

If Jesus wants to prove to the Jews that he is not blaspheming, he must give a scriptural evidence that he is God, but actually he didn't (according to your view as it's so clear that he denies it through his quotation), so actually he didn't care about teaching people.

Not true. Jesus gives ample proof over 3 1/2 of ministry in both teaching and miracles that He is God. Jesus teaches in multiple places that He is God so do His apostles. For you to trying argue on the basis of a single verse or a single passage that Jesus is not demonstrates a very poor understanding of the New Testament on your part.

Yes, I agree with you, but how did they receive him? By believing in the Trinity?

No, but Jesus did not come to teach or reveal the Trinity. He came to redeem mankind from sin on the cross and to rise again.

Sorry but I cannot see how this answers my question, you are just stating your belief which is not an evidence against me, as this belief needs evidence in itself. You may believe it and it may be a case that we cannot grasp, but we need first to prove that this belief is really true through scriptures, if it is, then your argument will be understood, but you need first to prove it.

It is a cultural idiom from the days where families would make blood covenants and the blood covenant representatives would make an incision in their hands and join their hands and thus mingling their blood. The idea was that both familes were symbolically "in" each other because of the mingled blood. It was a means of identification. Both families became one family, essentially. They were identified with each other and thus, if one family was attacked the other family was sworn to come to their defense. Both prospered together as one.

Working from that concept, Jesus makes the point that we are in Him and He is in us. We are part of one family. But taking it a bit further, Jesus lives in us in the person of His Holy Spirit. We are literally indewlt by the Creator of the universe, His presence takes up residence in our hearts and He transforms us into New Creations, new people who are empowered to live in grateful obedience to God.

So the word "son of God" in itself can be applied to an earthly man, meaning that it is not an independent evidence for deity.

The context and usage of the phrase is what is important and when it is applied to Jesus in the New Testament, it is ALWAYS a reference to Jesus deity. The fact that it can be used in other contexts to mean other things has absolutely no bearing on how it is used in reference to Jesus.

You apply it to Jesus as equating him with deity based on your belief.

Not true. I am applying proper literary analysis (hermeneutics), not "belief." I am being true to the text unlike you.

Being the son of God can mean that he was the chosen one among other sons or that he is the best one, doesn't necessarily tell that he is God in nature.

When applied to Jesus it most certainly DOES refer to Him as God.

Note that Jesus never said "I am God" in the Bible although he sometimes used the word son of God which is an interesting note regarding the above topic on John 10:3-39, when the Jews accused him of calling himself god, he didn't use the same word for himself although he cited a verse talking about people called gods, but when it came to himself he didn't say I am called god, but son of God. Why didn't he call himself God in this situation although all the arguments are using the word god? Jesus even said it by his own tongue, the Father is the only true God (john 17:3), note, he said the Father not God, which disproves the Trinity as it is talking about the Father only who is the only true God, meaning that he is not God he is not the Father unless you adopt that heresy saying that the father is the son is the holy spirit.

I have already answered you on this. Sorry, but you are exercizing very, very poor exegesis are really not competent to lecture me on what the Scriptures mean or what Jesus is saying. I understand Him perfectly and you are distorting Him and His words and asigning false motives to Him.

[Guest shiloh357]

Again, I answer you by a scripture, you answer me by stating your belief with no evidence, you still apply standards with no evidence, Jesus never said that he has a human and a divine nature, but this was a conclusion made by later Christians to hold verses talking about Jesus' humanity with their belief in his deity which needs evidence. So it seems we are going in a circle, I ask you why Jesus is God, you say because he made miracles, I answer you men made miracles and Jesus said he can do nothing by himself, you answer but Jesus is God and has human nature, so when he was doing miracles he was actually doing it under his own power because he is God. I ask you again, what is your prove that Jesus is God? We still need evidence not statement of faith.

Jesus Is Omniscient

Omniscience means that Jesus is all knowing. We see, in the verses below, that Jesus while on earth, was still able to know the innermost thoughts of men, and was even declared by Peter in John 21:17 to be all-knowing. Jesus did not correct Peter in His assessment of Jesus

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ Is God - Part 1 of 5

God The Father, God The Son (Jesus Christ), and God The Holy Spirit are Almighty God - Yet ONE - A Triune God - The Holy Trinity. God Created man in His Image - a triune being: body, soul, and spirit. The Holy Trinity is a Bible Fact, and Jesus Christ being God is a Bible Fact. Jesus Christ was not just a man or a prophet, rather Very God made manifest in the flesh. Jesus Christ was not in the form of a man before His earthly ministry, and He's not in the form of a man now. Jesus Christ is ONE with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit.

I hope you will read and study the following portions of Scripture and see for yourself that Jesus Christ is God as an absolute Bible Fact. Many try to deny the deity of Jesus Christ, and I think this is primarily due to Jesus Christ being the only way to Salvation. Satan and the powers of darkness don't want you to recognize Jesus Christ as God, and they certainly don't want you to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

I'll be listing a large number of comparisons between the King James Version and the Amplified Bible. The selected portions of Scripture are from friends, fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and my own studies. I hope you will study these portions of Scripture in your own Bible - in context with surrounding Scriptures. The portions of Scripture will be listed in the same order as they are in the Holy Bible. Pray before you begin and ask God to help you in understanding. Let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

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Genesis 49:10 KJV The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Genesis 49:10 AMP The scepter or leadership shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh [the Messiah, the Peaceful One] comes to Whom it belongs, and to Him shall be the obedience of the people. [Num. 24:17; Ps. 60:7.]

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Isaiah 2:2-3 KJV And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:2-3 AMP It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be [firmly] established as the highest of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow to it. 3 And many people shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us His ways and that we may walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law and instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

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Isaiah 7:13-14 KJV And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:13-14 AMP And [isaiah] said, Hear then, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary and try the patience of men, but will you weary and try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [ God with us]. [isa. 9:6; Jer. 31:22; Mic. 5:3-5; Matt. 1:22, 23.]

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Isaiah 9:6 KJV For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 AMP For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace. [isa. 25:1; 40:9-11; Matt. 28:18; Luke 2:11.]

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Isaiah 25:1-3 KJV O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. 2 For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built. 3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

Isaiah 25:1-3 AMP O LORD, You are my God; I will exalt You, I will praise Your name, for You have done wonderful things, even purposes planned of old [and fulfilled] in faithfulness and truth. 2 For You have made a city a heap, a fortified city a ruin, a palace of aliens without a city [is no more a city]; it will never be rebuilt. 3 Therefore [many] a strong people will glorify You, [many] a city of terrible and ruthless nations will [reverently] fear You.

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Isaiah 40:2-5 KJV Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins. 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Isaiah 40:2-5 AMP Speak tenderly to the heart of Jerusalem, and cry to her that her time of service and her warfare are ended, that [her punishment is accepted and] her iniquity is pardoned, that she has received [punishment] from the Lord's hand double for all her sins. 3 A voice of one who cries: Prepare in the wilderness the way of the Lord [clear away the obstacles]; make straight and smooth in the desert a highway for our God! [Mark 1:3.] 4 Every valley shall be lifted and filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be made low; and the crooked and uneven shall be made straight and level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory (majesty and splendor) of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. [Luke 3:5, 6.]

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Isaiah 40:9-11 KJV O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! 10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Isaiah 40:9-11 AMP O you who bring good tidings to Zion, get up to the high mountain. O you who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength, lift it up, be not afraid; say to the cities of Judah, Behold your God! [Acts 10:36; Rom. 10:15.] 10 Behold, the Lord God will come with might, and His arm will rule for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him. [Rev. 22:7, 12.] 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd: He will gather the lambs in His arm, He will carry them in His bosom and will gently lead those that have their young.

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ Is God - Part 2 of 5

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Isaiah 43:11-15 KJV I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. 15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 43:11-15 AMP I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior. 12 I have declared [the future] and have saved [the nation in times of danger], and I have shown [that I am God]--when there was no strange and alien god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the Lord, that I am God. 13 Yes, from the time of the first existence of day and from this day forth I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand. I will work, and who can hinder or reverse it? 14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sake I have sent [one] to Babylon, and I will bring down all of them as fugitives, [with] all their nobles, even the Chaldeans, into the ships over which they rejoiced. 15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.

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Isaiah 44:6 KJV Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:6 AMP Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. [Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13.]

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Micah 5:2-5 KJV But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. 3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. 4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. 5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

Micah 5:2-5 AMP But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you are little to be among the clans of Judah; [yet] out of you shall One come forth for Me Who is to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity). [ Gen. 49:10; Matt. 2:5-12; John 7:42.] 3 Therefore shall He give them up until the time that she who travails has brought forth; then what is left of His brethren shall return to the children of Israel. 4 And He shall stand and feed His flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord His God; and they shall dwell [secure], for then shall He be great [even] to the ends of the earth. [Ps. 72:8; Isa. 40:11; Zech. 9:10; Luke 1:32, 33.] 5 And this [One] shall be our peace. When the Assyrian comes into our land and treads upon our soil and in our palaces, then will we raise against him seven shepherds and eight princes among men. [isa. 9:6; Eph. 2:14.]

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Matthew 1:23 KJV Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 1:23 AMP Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel--which, when translated, means, God with us. [isa. 7:14.]

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Matthew 28:18-19 KJV And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matthew 28:18-19 AMP Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

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Luke 1:30-33 KJV And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luke 1:30-33 AMP And the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found grace (free, spontaneous, absolute favor and loving-kindness) with God. 31 And listen! You will become pregnant and will give birth to a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great (eminent) and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His forefather David, 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob throughout the ages; and of His reign there will be no end. [isa. 9:6, 7; Dan. 2:44.]

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Luke 2:11 KJV For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:11 AMP For to you is born this day in the town of David a Savior, Who is Christ (the Messiah) the Lord! [Mic. 5:2.]

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Luke 7:16 KJV And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Luke 7:16 AMP Profound and reverent fear seized them all, and they began to recognize God and praise and give thanks, saying, A great Prophet has appeared among us! And God has visited His people [in order to help and care for and provide for them]!

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John 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 AMP IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [isa. 9:6.]

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John 1:3 KJV All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:3 AMP All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

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John 1:10 KJV He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:10 AMP He came into the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him [did not know Him].

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ Is God - Part 3 of 5

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John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 AMP And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [isa. 40:5.]

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John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18 AMP No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [ He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]. [Prov. 8:30.]

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John 5:18 KJV Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:18 AMP This made the Jews more determined than ever to kill Him [to do away with Him]; because He not only was breaking (weakening, violating) the Sabbath, but He actually was speaking of God as being [in a special sense] His own Father, making Himself equal [putting Himself on a level] with God.

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John 8:58 KJV Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:58 AMP Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. [Exod. 3:14.]

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John 10:30 KJV I and my Father are one.

John 10:30 AMP I and the Father are One.

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John 10:33 KJV The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 10:33 AMP The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.

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John 12:41 KJV These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John 12:41 AMP Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [isa. 6:9, 10.]

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John 14:9 KJV Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:9 AMP Jesus replied, Have I been with all of you for so long a time, and do you not recognize and know Me yet, Philip? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say then, Show us the Father?

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John 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17:5 AMP And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

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John 17:10 KJV And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

John 17:10 AMP All [things that are] Mine are Yours, and all [things that are] Yours belong to Me; and I am glorified in (through) them. [They have done Me honor; in them My glory is achieved.]

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John 20:28 KJV And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:28 AMP Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!

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Acts 10:36 KJV The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

Acts 10:36 AMP You know the contents of the message which He sent to Israel, announcing the good news (Gospel) of peace by Jesus Christ, Who is Lord of all--

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Acts 20:28 KJV Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28 AMP Take care and be on guard for yourselves and the whole flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you bishops and guardians, to shepherd (tend and feed and guide) the church of the Lord or of God which He obtained for Himself [buying it and saving it for Himself] with His own blood.

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Romans 9:5 KJV Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:5 AMP To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all, God, blessed forever! Amen (so let it be).

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2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:4 AMP For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.

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Colossians 1:14-17 KJV In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:14-17 AMP In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins. 15 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation. 16 For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him. 17 And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together). [Prov. 8:22-31.]