Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[nChrist]

The Godhead - Also Known As The Holy Trinity

God The Father - 1st Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) - 2nd Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) - 3rd Person Of The Holy Trinity

Three Unique Personages Of God - Yet One

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3 AMP IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [isa. 9:6.] 2 He was present originally with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

__________

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 AMP And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [isa. 40:5.]

__________

John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:6-7 AMP Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen Him.

__________

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11 AMP Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, 10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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1 John 5:7 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 AMP So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;

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Jesus Christ was and is God - One with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is Eternal with no beginning and no ending. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is the Creator - not the created. This is an unquestioned fact stated many ways in the Holy Bible - God's Word. The only way to dispute this basic Bible Fact is to use a book other than the Holy Bible. Those who do reject God and are unbelievers. Further, God rejects them.

__________

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:32-33 AMP Therefore, everyone who acknowledges Me before men and confesses Me [out of a state of oneness with Me], I will also acknowledge him before My Father Who is in heaven and confess [that I am abiding in] him. 33 But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.

[A Muslim]

I just wanted to note that I didn't reply many of your quotations where you were just answering by stating your belief with no supporting evidence as i am not going to repeat my words over and over, so in this post I will be concerned with the new points and evidence you give.

I am not arguing that God is a man. The heart of Christianity is that God too human flesh upon Himself to become one of us in order to redeem us from sin. Jesus is God incarnate. He is God in human form.

Which means that you believe that Jesus the man is God which is against the verse that God is not a man, Jesus didn't clarify that point because he had other things to do than telling who he is or who God is. A nice answer.

Jesus did not claim to be "a son of man." Jesus claimed to be THE Son of Man.

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man

The verse in Numbers is also speaking about the son of man not a son of man. May be you will say that Hebrew has no articles, so you have no point in what you say when you distinguish between a son of man and the son of man.

Not true. I referenced Jesus' use of the term when He called two of His disciples "sons of thunder." Jesus equated their violent tempers with the violent sound of thunder.

Then when he talks about the disciples telling that they are sons of God, he will be equating them with God.

John uses the word huios. He uses that word to denote Jesus' uniqueness as "The Son of God." He never uses huios to refer to humans as "sons of God."

A nice try, but Matthew uses it:

Mat 5:9

BlessedG3107 are theG3588 peacemakers:G1518 forG3754 theyG846 shall be calledG2564 the childrenG5207 of God.G2316

Strong's Bible dictionary

G5207

υἱός

uihos

hwee-os'

Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

Are the peacemakers equal to God?

That's my point. They were not gods, but it was not blasphemy to refer to them as "elohim" given that it was a term that denote their role as Elohim's reprsentatives.

So this also applies to Jesus, He was not God, but it was not blasphemy to refer to him as "the son of God" given that it was a term that denote his role as God's reprsentative as a prophet.

Wrong again. Jesus was not calling Himself "a son of God." Rather He called Himself "The Son of God." The word again being used is "huios" and demonstrates His lesser to to greater argument. They are elohim and as such they have no claim to deity. However, Jesus uses the word "huios" thus denoting His deity as "THE Son of God."

Well, first of all Jesus didn't speak Greek to say that he used the word huios. Secondly the word huios wasn't used solely for Jesus.

It is used for David's Kingdom, not the physical man, David.

The same thing applies to Jesus, it's not Jesus but his kingdom. Till now you can't provide an evidence that Jesus was eternal

Immanuel is not the Name of Jesus. It is a title reflecting His character.

The verse says his name is, you say it is not his name but character, whom should I believe?

Sure it does. As Messiah, Jesus fulfilled every prophecy of His first coming including when, where and how He would be born.

Actually he didn't, but even if we supposed he did, that doesn't mean that he is God, God tells a prophecy that some man will come, when the man comes, that doesn't mean that he is God because he fulfilled a prophecy. A very odd logic.

[A Muslim]

You are only looking at part of what Jesus said. Jesus said that He alone knows the Will of the Father and that Jesus has the power to reveal the Father to whom ever HE (the Son) chooses. Jesus did not give up His authority as God. He simply gave up certain prerogatives that are associated with deity.

He didn't say that he knew it alone, but he said the son and whom the son chosen. The son is actually choosing based on the Father's well not his well, as we have been talking before and you agreed with me that he does nothing except by the will of the Father and you distinguished between the will and the power, here he is talking about something referring to will:

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In Christianity, the beauty of what Jesus did was that it was voluntary. Jesus did not have to die for man's sin.

These words in itself are a restriction to God's power as if God had no solution to save people from sins except that he dies for them, which is a clear insult to God. God needn't do that, anyone who repents faithfully to God will be saved:

Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

There is no equality in terms of rank, but there is absolute equality in terms of essential nature. He is not equal to the father as the Son, but He IS equal to the Father in terms of being God.

Which is a polytheism, as there is a hierarchy in godhead a junior god and a senior god. You consider both as God but each one has a rank.

Observationally, it may appear that humans perform miracles, but it is God who performs them. Jesus' however demonstrated that His miracles were different in that they were done by Him personally indicating His power as God to perform them.

Again, you lack the evidence to say so, and actually Jesus was against what you said as people understood that this was God's authority to man and he didn't correct them and other things discussed before i am not going to repeat them.

As it stands, you are sliding down a greased pole straight into hell. Allah and Muhammad can't save you. Neither of them died for your sins.

Because Allah is a Forgiving God and He forgives me when I repent from my sins. He is not a weak god that has no solution to save people except through dying for them or a lamb because I don't worship lambs.

Rev 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings

[A Muslim]

Jesus WAS quoting Scripture. He was asked what the greatest commandment was and He presented it. He was quoting the text.

He was quoting the scripture, but he didn't exclude himself from the word our. If there was a distinction as you claim, he would have elaborated it, but he didn't.

Yes, but you are not Human and Divine. Jesus' expression denotes the uniqueness of His relationship with the Father that is different than what a man experiences. You are not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that, though.

Not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that? A nice answer that can convince non-Christians.

Except that the Greek doesn't support that nonsense. Your argument is that either Thomas was just using a exclamation (that did not exist in 1st century Israel) or that it was added to the text later. Maybe you need to make up your mind because it is clear that you are really reaching in desparation for something to say.

Keep calm man. Things don't go that way. The case is that this verse can mean anything except Jesus deity, whatever Thomas meant, he didn't mean to say that Jesus is God, may be this exclamation wasn't present in the first century israel because they were not used to pronounce God's name, but actually Jesus corrected many things and added many modifications to Jewish culture, this could have been one of them, otherwise why do Christians pronounce God's name nowadays? The case is that the context was not talking about believing that Jesus is God but believing that Jesus was resurrected, so actually your view of what Thomas said doesn't match with the context nor with other verses telling that the Father is the ONLY true God.

God is a servant. Maybe your "allah" is not a servant, but YHVH, the true God is a servant. It is one of His attributes as God. God is always seeking for what makes for our highest good. God is love and love is always a servant.

Actually the word servant denotes inferiorship and is against God's Mightiness, even the Arabic Bible denotes that word "servant" as "abd" which means slave rather than khadem which means "servant", the second thing is that Isaiah 42:1 is saying that this servant is upheld by God, not by his own power. So actually Jesus was supported by God not by his own power, even the Bible tells that he was strengthened by an angel, is an angel stronger than God?

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Lu 22:43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

Actually Islam is far and way one of the most pagan religions of modern times. Christianity is not pagan at all. We serve the one true God YHVH of Israel. You serve a false god and trust in the empty babblings of an insane, dead prophet.

Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it came to smash paganism and false beliefs of God. Your insult to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the same as the insults of pagans because he came to smash their idols. Your heart is like those pagans. You also have idols and Jesus is considered to be your idol although he is totally innocent from that claim you attribute to him which is not present even in your books, and one day you will find him abstaining from you and all those who attributed these false claims to him:

116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."(Quran Sura 5)

Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't teach that God is three persons different in rank which is polytheism. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that God is incarnated as a man who eats, drinks and dies. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that the only way to save people is that God dies for them that's why he made a plan to save them, nice tactics. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that God is a lamb as he was sacrificed for us. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't worship statues and images and say that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and hail Mary beliefs (Regarded to Catholics). Islam came to smash all these pagan and false beliefs and restore people to the true way of God.

[Guest]

.... I just wanted to note that I didn't reply many of your quotations where you were just answering by stating your belief with no supporting evidence as i am not going to repeat my words over and over, so in this post I will be concerned with the new points and evidence you give.....

.... I am not arguing that God is a man. The heart of Christianity is that God too human flesh upon Himself to become one of us in order to redeem us from sin. Jesus is God incarnate. He is God in human form.....

.... Which means that you believe that Jesus the man is God which is against the verse that God is not a man, Jesus didn't clarify that point because he had other things to do than telling who he is or who God is. A nice answer........

Well

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:11-15

You Judge

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world. John 11:25-27

And You Will Be Judged

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 6:26-29

It Is Your Choice

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:25-26

Or Is It

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:3-5

My Beloved Heavenly Father Please Bind The Mind Blinder

In The Name Of Jesus Christ Your Holy Son

And My Kindsmen-Redeemer

I Pray Glory To Him

Amen, Love

Your Joe

____________

Believe

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Believe

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:5-7

Love, Joe

____________

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:43-48

In The Holy Name Of Jesus I Ask, Save Now!

Amen LORD, Amen

Love, Joe

[nChrist]

A Muslim,

You have a false religion, false prophet, and false god without the power to do anything. You have nothing to offer us or yourself except a false, man-made religion.

The day will come soon when the True and Living God will crush evil and subject all things beneath His Feet. Jesus Christ will take what is rightfully His and rule over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. All people who survive the Tribulation Period will bow to Him and know beyond any doubt that He is God. I firmly believe that the time is growing short for unbelievers to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Those who die in their sins without Christ will stand before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment for eternal condemnation to the fires of hell. So, not only is Jesus Christ God - He is also the Holy and Righteous Judge of all mankind.

The Godhead - Also Known As The Holy Trinity

God The Father - 1st Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Son (Jesus Christ, The Word) - 2nd Person Of The Holy Trinity

God The Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) - 3rd Person Of The Holy Trinity

Three Unique Personages Of God - Yet One

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3 AMP IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [isa. 9:6.] 2 He was present originally with God. 3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

__________

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 AMP And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [isa. 40:5.]

__________

John 14:6-7 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:6-7 AMP Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. 7 If you had known Me [had learned to recognize Me], you would also have known My Father. From now on, you know Him and have seen Him.

__________

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11 AMP Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, 10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

__________

1 John 5:7 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 AMP So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;

__________

Jesus Christ was and is God - One with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is Eternal with no beginning and no ending. The Godhead (Holy Trinity) is the Creator - not the created. This is an unquestioned fact stated many ways in the Holy Bible - God's Word. The only way to dispute this basic Bible Fact is to use a book other than the Holy Bible. Those who do reject God and are unbelievers. Further, God rejects them.

__________

Matthew 10:32-33 KJV Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:32-33 AMP Therefore, everyone who acknowledges Me before men and confesses Me [out of a state of oneness with Me], I will also acknowledge him before My Father Who is in heaven and confess [that I am abiding in] him. 33 But whoever denies and disowns Me before men, I also will deny and disown him before My Father Who is in heaven.

[Guest shiloh357]

I just wanted to note that I didn't reply many of your quotations where you were just answering by stating your belief with no supporting evidence as i am not going to repeat my words over and over, so in this post I will be concerned with the new points and evidence you give.

I have given you plenty of supporting evidence. You are simply in denial, and there is no amount of evidence I can provide that would ever be enough to someone like yourself who is not able to understand, or is too wicked to want to.

shiloh357, on 12 December 2010 - 03:42 PM, said:

I am not arguing that God is a man. The heart of Christianity is that God too human flesh upon Himself to become one of us in order to redeem us from sin. Jesus is God incarnate. He is God in human form.

Which means that you believe that Jesus the man is God which is against the verse that God is not a man, Jesus didn't clarify that point because he had other things to do than telling who he is or who God is. A nice answer.

Wrong. To say Jesus is both fully God and fully man is not to say God is a man. It means that God took upon Himself human flesh in order to live among us. Jesus as God took on full humanity, took upon Himself human flesh. That does not diminish His divinity. To say God is a man, is to deny the deity of God. That is not what I am doing. I am saying that Jesus is both God AND man by virtue of His choice to come to earth to redeem man from sin.

Quote

Jesus did not claim to be "a son of man." Jesus claimed to be THE Son of Man.

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man

The verse in Numbers is also speaking about the son of man not a son of man. May be you will say that Hebrew has no articles, so you have no point in what you say when you distinguish between a son of man and the son of man.

Again, we are dealing with the claims of Christ Himself. I am referring to how Jesus used the term. "The Son of Man" by the time we get to the days of Jesus, was a Messianic reference out of the book of Daniel. It was a reference that the religious leaders in Israel would have been very familiar with.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

(Dan 7:13-14)

Jesus applied the term "The Son of Man" to Himself and was convicted of blasphemy.

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

(Mar 14:61-64)

I realize you don't have the ability to understand this given that you are a sinner, but the accusation of blasphemy was based on His claiming to be the Son of God ("the Blessed) and being seated on the Right Hand of God. The Messiah is shown here to be the Son of God, which is a clear reference to Jesus' deity.

Quote

Not true. I referenced Jesus' use of the term when He called two of His disciples "sons of thunder." Jesus equated their violent tempers with the violent sound of thunder.

Then when he talks about the disciples telling that they are sons of God, he will be equating them with God.

Not so.

There is a clear difference in hebraic thought between mere humans being "sons of God" and the Messiah being THE Son of God. You are unwilling make the distinction because that would force you to have to deal with Jesus' claims about Himself in a more intelligent manner. As it is, all you can do is muddy the water and try to make passages appear to say something different than what they say.

Quote

John uses the word huios. He uses that word to denote Jesus' uniqueness as "The Son of God." He never uses huios to refer to humans as "sons of God."

A nice try, but Matthew uses it:

Mat 5:9

BlessedG3107 are theG3588 peacemakers:G1518 forG3754 theyG846 shall be calledG2564 the childrenG5207 of God.G2316

Strong's Bible dictionary

G5207

υἱός

uihos

hwee-os'

Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

Are the peacemakers equal to God?

Doesn't matter if Matthew uses it or not. In the nuances of Hebraic thought, usage of a word trumps the lexical definition of the term. Furthermore, Strong's Concordance Dictionary is not a lexicon and really only gives a wide range of possible meanings. The meaning of a term is seen through the context and the intent of the author. The same phrase can be entirely different things depending on how it is used and by what the author intends to convey. If a person says, "I love my wife" but also says, "I love my dog," do we assume He loves his dog and his wife in the same way??? Of course not. We recogninze in natural conversation that he is using the phrase "I love..." in entirely different ways.

In the same way, the Bible is not locked into one and only one way of using the phrases "Son of God" or "Son of Man." You are trying to lock in the Bible into one meaning that must apply universally every time those phrases are used and you simply cannot do that. It is the immediate context and intent of the author that determines how we use those phrases.

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That's my point. They were not gods, but it was not blasphemy to refer to them as "elohim" given that it was a term that denote their role as Elohim's reprsentatives.

So this also applies to Jesus, He was not God, but it was not blasphemy to refer to him as "the son of God" given that it was a term that denote his role as God's reprsentative as a prophet.

This goes back to what I said above. You need to understand the nuances of Hebrew and Hebraic thought and the various ways a particular phrase can be used. You cannot take ONE meaning of a phrase and apply it universally every time it occurs in a given text. Context and the intent of the author are important tools in understanding the text. Your approach is demonstrates that you have no skill in the rules of literary analysis and are really not qualified to even be in this debate.

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Wrong again. Jesus was not calling Himself "a son of God." Rather He called Himself "The Son of God." The word again being used is "huios" and demonstrates His lesser to to greater argument. They are elohim and as such they have no claim to deity. However, Jesus uses the word "huios" thus denoting His deity as "THE Son of God."

Well, first of all Jesus didn't speak Greek to say that he used the word huios. Secondly the word huios wasn't used solely for Jesus.

Yeah, but we are talking about the book of John and John makes it clear that Jesus' use "Son of God" for Himself is unique. The fact that the other gospel writers (who had different focus points for their writings) don't bring that out is irrelevant. John provides us evidence of Jesus' deity over and over. In fact, John's purpose for writing was to show Jesus' deity. You keep trying to muddy the water and deny evidence that is stated clearly and then claim no evidence has been offered. It shows that you are really not being honest about the text.

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It is used for David's Kingdom, not the physical man, David.

The same thing applies to Jesus, it's not Jesus but his kingdom. Till now you can't provide an evidence that Jesus was eternal

I have provided biblical evidence that Jesus is eternal. The fact that you have resort to ignoring evidence in order to pretend that no evidence has been provided only highlights the lack of honesty and integrity you possess in this debate. It makes me question if you are worthy to continue speaking to me.

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Immanuel is not the Name of Jesus. It is a title reflecting His character.

The verse says his name is, you say it is not his name but character, whom should I believe?

What you seem to be overlooking, is that even if you claim it to be His Name, you still have to deal with what it means. Immanuel, means "God with us" and it is being applied to Jesus. However, it is a title by which He will be called. It is the same thing as when the Scripture says concerning Jesus, "His Name called be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, The Prince of Peace." Those are titles, not Names.

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Sure it does. As Messiah, Jesus fulfilled every prophecy of His first coming including when, where and how He would be born.

Actually he didn't, but even if we supposed he did, that doesn't mean that he is God, God tells a prophecy that some man will come, when the man comes, that doesn't mean that he is God because he fulfilled a prophecy. A very odd logic.

You are wrong. There is not ONE unfufilled Messianic prophecy of His first coming. He fulfilled all of them even His birth.

You need to understand that the odds of Jesus fulfilling just a few of the prophecies are astronomical. Yet Jesus did not fulfill just a few. He fulfilled them all. We are now waiting for the fulfillment of His second coming prophecies.

[Guest shiloh357]

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You are only looking at part of what Jesus said. Jesus said that He alone knows the Will of the Father and that Jesus has the power to reveal the Father to whom ever HE (the Son) chooses. Jesus did not give up His authority as God. He simply gave up certain prerogatives that are associated with deity.

He didn't say that he knew it alone, but he said the son and whom the son chosen. The son is actually choosing based on the Father's well not his well, as we have been talking before and you agreed with me that he does nothing except by the will of the Father and you distinguished between the will and the power, here he is talking about something referring to will:

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

The fact that the Jesus submitted to the Will of the Father is not an argument against Jesus' deity. Jesus did not have to ask the Father's permission to heal or to forgive sins. Jesus is simply relating the overall tenor of His ministry. It was one of obedience and submission to the Father. Jesus is modeling for us the kind of submission and obedience to the Father that should be part of the life of His followers. Those who claim to belong to Christ should walk in the same obedience and submission to the Father that Jesus did. Jesus was not saying that He in and of Himself, lacked the power to heal or forgive or whatever. His point was that in all He did, He did it in obedience to the Father and that it was to reflect the Father will which in turn reveals the character and nature of God in a way that human beings could grasp. Jesus healed, absolved sins, was merciful, sinless, Holy and righteous and in doing so revealed the Father to man. He was obedient to His Father and lived in submission to Him so that He could provide us with an example of how to live. As God, He was a revelation of the Father, but as a man He was a righteous model for man to emulate.

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In Christianity, the beauty of what Jesus did was that it was voluntary. Jesus did not have to die for man's sin.

These words in itself are a restriction to God's power as if God had no solution to save people from sins except that he dies for them, which is a clear insult to God.

Actually, it was the only way. That is not an insult to God; on the contrary it demonstates the holiness of God. God's justice against our sin had to be satisfied and the only way it can be satisfied is the death of the offender, namely man. In salvation, God Himself is man's redeemer. God Himself took on the role of both the offender and the offended. He bore the judgment against our sin in the person of Jesus Christ and in doing so as a sinless man He was able to pay the full penalty and redeem man from the curse of God's law. As God, His justice is fully satisfied and Jesus rose from the dead as the final supreme act of personal power over death.

God needn't do that, anyone who repents faithfully to God will be saved:

Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.

Except that man on his own cannot please God well enough to be saved. The OT sets forth what is required. But in the NT we find that God provides the means of meeting that requirement. He did this through the death, burial and resurrrection of His Son, Jesus. Jesus is not a prophet or a wise man. He never claimed to be either one. In essence, Jesus does not give you the option of accepting Him as a mere prophet. His claims about Himself far and away exceed simply claiming to be a prophet. Jesus claims and proves over and over that He is God and that He is the ONLY savior for man and that NO ONE can know God apart from Him.

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There is no equality in terms of rank, but there is absolute equality in terms of essential nature. He is not equal to the father as the Son, but He IS equal to the Father in terms of being God.

Which is a polytheism, as there is a hierarchy in godhead a junior god and a senior god. You consider both as God but each one has a rank.

No, it is not polytheism. Polythesism is the notion of multiple gods. We maintain that there is only one God, but He reveals in Himself, three persons. It is a mystery, but it is not polytheism.

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Observationally, it may appear that humans perform miracles, but it is God who performs them. Jesus' however demonstrated that His miracles were different in that they were done by Him personally indicating His power as God to perform them.

Again, you lack the evidence to say so, and actually Jesus was against what you said as people understood that this was God's authority to man and he didn't correct them and other things discussed before i am not going to repeat them.

Again, I have provided the evdience from Scripture. Your refusal to accept that evidence does not mean it has not been provided.

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As it stands, you are sliding down a greased pole straight into hell. Allah and Muhammad can't save you. Neither of them died for your sins.

Because Allah is a Forgiving God and He forgives me when I repent from my sins. He is not a weak god that has no solution to save people except through dying for them or a lamb because I don't worship lambs.

Rev 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings

[Guest shiloh357]

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Jesus WAS quoting Scripture. He was asked what the greatest commandment was and He presented it. He was quoting the text.

He was quoting the scripture, but he didn't exclude himself from the word our. If there was a distinction as you claim, he would have elaborated it, but he didn't.

In quoting Scripture, Jesus would not have used a different word. That is the nature of quoting. Jesus simply said what the Bible said. He was not including Himself, as that was not the reason He quoted it. He was simply asked what the greatest commandment was and He quoted the verse. That was not in any way a denial of Deity. You are trying to read way more into the text than what is there and you are applying to an issue was not meant to address. Again, it only demonstrates your poor literary analysis skills. Your handling of the text is a trainwreck and is not at all honest.

Jesus simply said I ascend to my Father and your Father, My God and your God. He He did not say "our God." That is in important distinction because He was not putting Himself on outside of God.

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Yes, but you are not Human and Divine. Jesus' expression denotes the uniqueness of His relationship with the Father that is different than what a man experiences. You are not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that, though.

Not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that? A nice answer that can convince non-Christians.

I am not trying to convince you. I am not required to convince you. If you reject Jesus, you will go to hell. That is is as simple as I can make. I am not responsible for your decision. I am not responsible for trying to convince you. I simply present the truth as it is in Scripture and your decision for or against Jesus as Savior and Lord is your decision and you will reap the eternal consequences either way. That is on you, not on me. It is between you and Jesus, now.

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Except that the Greek doesn't support that nonsense. Your argument is that either Thomas was just using a exclamation (that did not exist in 1st century Israel) or that it was added to the text later. Maybe you need to make up your mind because it is clear that you are really reaching in desparation for something to say.

Keep calm man. Things don't go that way. The case is that this verse can mean anything except Jesus deity, whatever Thomas meant, he didn't mean to say that Jesus is God, may be this exclamation wasn't present in the first century israel because they were not used to pronounce God's name, but actually Jesus corrected many things and added many modifications to Jewish culture, this could have been one of them, otherwise why do Christians pronounce God's name nowadays? The case is that the context was not talking about believing that Jesus is God but believing that Jesus was resurrected, so actually your view of what Thomas said doesn't match with the context nor with other verses telling that the Father is the ONLY true God.

The text clearly states that when Thomas finally saw Jesus He believed that He was risen and in the context of seeing Jesus resurrected He proclaimed "My Lord and My God." He was not saying "Oh my God" or something like that. It was a confession of faith in Jesus as both Lord and God. Like it or not, that is what the text says. You can try to muddy the water to get around a plain and clear statement, but that only proves that you are not really honest about the text and are willing to go to any extreme not to have to deal with the plain and clear statements in the text.

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God is a servant. Maybe your "allah" is not a servant, but YHVH, the true God is a servant. It is one of His attributes as God. God is always seeking for what makes for our highest good. God is love and love is always a servant.

Actually the word servant denotes inferiorship and is against God's Mightiness,

The thing about YHVH (only true God) is that He strength is seen clearly in what the world counts as weakness. God is always operating in that kind of pardox. The world sees salvation through the cross as foolishness; the world is confounded by the way God uses the weak things to bring the mighty to naught. God uses the weak things so that His strength is clearly seen.

So actually Jesus was supported by God not by his own power, even the Bible tells that he was strengthened by an angel, is an angel stronger than God?

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Lu 22:43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

No, but then Jesus was also fully human and He was dealing with that situation in His humanity, not in His deity. That is not an argument agaisnt Jesus' deity. Jesus lived as a man in complete dependence on the father, but that did not preclude Jesus from exercizing divine perogatives in man's behalf.

See, Jesus when came to His own life, His own needs lived in complete dependence on the Father. Yet when it came to relating to men, Jesus performed miracles, raised the dead, forgave sins, received worship, exercized personal power over nature, and operated as the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. Jesus never performed one miracle for his own good. His power as God was always for the benefit of others for in doing so He revealed the Father to man. As a man, He walked in obedience and servitude to the Father even to the point of obedience to the cross.

[A Muslim]

I was late in reply because I was abroad and I didn't have neither the time nor the access to reply. Now let's see your arguments.

Wrong. To say Jesus is both fully God and fully man is not to say God is a man. It means that God took upon Himself human flesh in order to live among us. Jesus as God took on full humanity, took upon Himself human flesh. That does not diminish His divinity. To say God is a man, is to deny the deity of God. That is not what I am doing. I am saying that Jesus is both God AND man by virtue of His choice to come to earth to redeem man from sin.

You are just trying to go around the plain text to prove your point. Jesus said that he is a man (John 8:40) and the son of man. God says that he is neither a man nor the son of man. Then Jesus is NOT God. And to say that Jesus is fully God and fully man is contradicting statement in itself concerning these scriptures rather than having no evidence for it in the Bible.

Again, we are dealing with the claims of Christ Himself. I am referring to how Jesus used the term. "The Son of Man" by the time we get to the days of Jesus, was a Messianic reference out of the book of Daniel. It was a reference that the religious leaders in Israel would have been very familiar with.

And Jews never believed that the Messiah was God either before Jesus or after him.

Jesus applied the term "The Son of Man" to Himself and was convicted of blasphemy.

Well, I have already said before that the action of those leaders proves nothing as they were biased from the beginning and made up their mind concerning their action against him so whatever he says they would give the same reaction.

There is a clear difference in hebraic thought between mere humans being "sons of God" and the Messiah being THE Son of God.

Actually you have admitted before that Jews never believed that the Messiah is God and now you are calling their thought to prove your point. They will do nothing for you. Even if there was a distinction, it will just tell that Jesus is the Messiah. That doesn't make him God.

In the same way, the Bible is not locked into one and only one way of using the phrases "Son of God" or "Son of Man." You are trying to lock in the Bible into one meaning that must apply universally every time those phrases are used and you simply cannot do that. It is the immediate context and intent of the author that determines how we use those phrases.

I am not trying to lock anything. You are the one trying to give a distinction, then the burden of proof lies upon you not me. You were the one who said from the beginning that the word son of God denotes equality with God, when I gave verses telling that others were called sons of God, you took a step back and said it depends on context. The context is what we already are discussing and I see that you provided nothing till now tells that Jesus is God.

Yeah, but we are talking about the book of John and John makes it clear that Jesus' use "Son of God" for Himself is unique. The fact that the other gospel writers (who had different focus points for their writings) don't bring that out is irrelevant.

You are really lacking reason. How is it irrelevant? They were all using the same language and used the same word for others. Even if they had other purposes, that doesn't negate the fact that they used these words which you consider to be denoting equality with God for other people, rather than using these words has nothing to do with the so-called objective. How does Jesus refferring to peace makers as sons of God be irrelevant to Matthew's objective to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah for example?

I have provided biblical evidence that Jesus is eternal. The fact that you have resort to ignoring evidence in order to pretend that no evidence has been provided only highlights the lack of honesty and integrity you possess in this debate. It makes me question if you are worthy to continue speaking to me.

Oh! I am sorry I didn't realize that I was so honoured speaking to your majesty . No, you provided nothing proving that Jesus is eternal, all what you gave was adressed by other verses from your Bible. You are trying to give a distinction based on your faith rather than scripture. This your problem not mine.

What you seem to be overlooking, is that even if you claim it to be His Name, you still have to deal with what it means. Immanuel, means "God with us" and it is being applied to Jesus.

Well, I have already answered this concerning the other Hebrew names including el. So you have no point in it. You even evaded this by saying it's the title not the name when Jesus never used this term nor did anyone call him so while being on earth either as a title or as a name, but it was once quoted by a gospel writer after Jesus was raised. The same thing applies to Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus was never called that name either on earth or after resurrection.

You need to understand that the odds of Jesus fulfilling just a few of the prophecies are astronomical. Yet Jesus did not fulfill just a few. He fulfilled them all. We are now waiting for the fulfillment of His second coming prophecies.

So you are now contradicting yourself, you say that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy but we are waiting for his second coming prophecies. Actually using that type of evidence to prove that Jesus is God is really a joke proving that you are bankrupt and cannot provide anymore real evidence, so you began to say anything.

The fact that the Jesus submitted to the Will of the Father is not an argument against Jesus' deity. Jesus did not have to ask the Father's permission to heal or to forgive sins. Jesus is simply relating the overall tenor of His ministry.

Well, Jesus said: " I CAN do nothing by myself" not I do or I may or any other word, the word can refers to being able or not, so actually Jesus submitted to the Father's will because he HAS to as he can do nothing by himself. You may try to state your faith as you like but it will add nothing to our argument as it is lacking evidence rather than being against scripture.