Apokalupsis Posted September 6, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2002 Griff, I understand that, believe it, and have told others that. Problem however, is that it only addresses instances where God gave ample time to those he was punishing. What about the people who were struck down when Moses came down from the mountain w/ the tablets? There are many instances like this, where judgement was very swift, and it appears no time was given to repent. My concern is not why he apparently judged so quickly in those instances (as it could be that God knows who would accept him and who wouldn't, he knows men's hearts, etc...). It is rather, why he DID exercise quick judgement thru his divine knowledge, as opposed why he doesn't NOW. There were many instances in the OT where he did not wait before he acted. The question therefore, is: What is different about today that he would not exercise this immediate judgement, than when he did back in the OT? Eph... Ah..."serf's up dude"...it's time to catch a narley wave..maybe for you and that bird holding the board huh...? (( Whats the going rate for bad guesses around here...??? )) Easy to criticize and say one is wrong...but it's another thing altogether to actualy respond with a viable answer isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted September 6, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Ah..."serf's up dude"...it's time to catch a narley wave..maybe for you and that bird holding the board huh...? Good One! Apok, The GOOD NEWS is that we are no longer under the law of condemnation and death. Some may disagree with me, but in the days of Noah giants roamed the earth, these were fallen angels that were mixed with humans and God destroyed them and ultimately (though not at the time of the flood) prevented them from doing this any longer. With Sodom and Gomorrah, men were continually evil and sinning, God gave the chance for them to repent by sending them warning, they didn't so He wiped them out. Our world is much bigger now, I don't know if there is any place on earth were there are no saved people, I hope not anyways, God wouldn't destroy the saved with the lost. Hey, in numbers a man was stoned to death for picking up fire wood on the Sabbath. God has NEVER changed, He is and was and will be good, and love and fair. The Old Covenant was punishable by death because there was no Holy Spirit dwelling in men then and now we have the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us and we have a conscience. Grace HAS to be extended to all because it is God's perfect gift to save mankind. Those that don't accept it will face judgement and death, it WILL come. You have a very valid question and I hope I helped answer it some, though it is much more extensive than just this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apokalupsis Posted September 6, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 6, 2002 Hey, in numbers a man was stoned to death for picking up fire wood on the Sabbath Yes, another instance that appears unclear. Thank you for your answer Word...but it doesn't seem too clear. Why wasn't the Holy Spirit with those in the OT? And what does the Holy Spirit do to prevent God's immediate judgement? Also, even though there are many saved and unsaved w/i close proximity of each other...so was the case in many instances in the OT (ie, the example I gave w/ Moses, plagues on Israel from God (forcing them to leave the Promised Land), etc... I don't think that God would punish the innocent and the good by any means. It is a difficult question to answer...perhaps there IS no answer. We are not to understand all things with our finite minds. But in the area of apologetics...this can be a weakness IMO when having to answer to skeptics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted September 6, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Apok, There was no Holy Spirit dwelling in them in the OT because of sin. At the time Adam and Eve sinned, they became spirtually dead. God said "My spirit will not continue forever with man" The law was to point out sin, because without a conscience you wouldn't know sin. So it was a list of do's and don'ts to keep people in line. The punishment for disobeying the law was death. If the Old Covenant were perfect, there would be no need for a new one, right? Man could not keep the law, so they gave blood sacrifices for their sins, problem is, that didn't work either because they were doing it out of obligation, not love. So, God sent the perfect sacrifice-Jesus to cover the sins of man and make them able to enter into that relationship with God that was intended from the beginning. Sin is still there, but Jesus' blood covers it for the believer so that God sees us as the righteousness of God, through the blood sacrifice that paid for our sin. The Holy Spirit is now here on earth in the true believers restraining much of the evil in people. If He were not, the world would be continually evil and sinful like it was in the OT. Hope that makes sense. :thumb: Keep studying and learning, it's a wonderfully exciting process. Galatians may help you understand this some better. Blessings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Warrior FC Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Do not be decieved!... God is no different now than back then! He still pours out His wrath on those who remain dis-obedient to Him! Open your eyes and look around you. Why do you think earthquakes and such hit places like LA, CA and other places where sin is abounding? God has never changed! He is the same yesteday, today, and forever. He is indeed slow to anger, but He does get angry... And just as He was back in the OT he has brand new grace and mercy each day as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted September 7, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted September 7, 2002 So, you're saying God makes innocent people die with the sinners in an earthquake? In case you hadn't heard, satan comes to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus came that we might have life! God does not kill innocent babies and people in tragedies! This thinking is the reason some poeple asked where God was on 9/11. Sin and the destruction of our planet by it is what causes disasters, not God. His judgement is coming and it will be far worse than any earthquake CA's ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Warrior FC Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 You are looking at things through the eyes of the flesh! Are you saying that satan has the power to create an earthquake, make floods, etc.?? My bible states differently! God is in control of the weather and conditions. And God's wrath does come on cities, states, and countries. I have to speak the truth to you! Why would God use floods, earthquakes, and such before... but does not now? And how come they hit those places that are living very sinful lifestyles? As far as 911...that was destruction caused by man... not God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josephstrks Posted September 7, 2002 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 143 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/24/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted September 7, 2002 I'm glad we are finally on this topic. I've been trying to address this for weeks. Apok is right, how do you explain this in the field of Apologetics to skeptical people? In my reading of the OT, God inflicted plenty of wrath on the masses. People always want to say it was Satan that did it, but the OT clearly states over and over and over again that God was doing these things to the people for whatever reason, including famines, plagues, swords, etc. So what about the collateral damage, surely there must have been some innocents caught up in the plagues et al. Or do you suppose that God singled out those few God-fearing people? And who's to say that 9/11 was caused by man, and was not actually a divine appointment? These are tough questions, folks, and require tough answers to satisfy an unbeliever who is asking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsower Posted September 7, 2002 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 42 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,545 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/18/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/27/1968 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Are you saying that satan has the power to create an earthquake, make floods, etc.?? Rev. 12:15-16: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Griffin Posted September 9, 2002 Share Posted September 9, 2002 Griff, I understand that, believe it, and have told others that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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