Why Choose Christianity?

[Guest SDGS]

I have not read beyond the OP part here:

There is one major exception. There is only one that teaches that you can do no good work to save yourself. Only God has mercy. Man has no chance to reach him without Gods grace.

My problem with this, that I just cannot get past, is that God started the whole thing, made a way for Adam and Eve to fail, when that tree could have been left out. Now, God is going to hold their actions over all our heads, and I never asked for it nor did I ask to be brought into this world. But because I was born, now I am to blame?

Plus, i cannot make "forever and ever being tortured" to be fair for about 80 years of living. Forever, and ever, fire, for x amount of actual life I never even wanted. And He loves me?

I am not trying to pot stir; I honestly cannot make that make sense in my mind.

[Fez]

I have not read beyond the OP part here:

There is one major exception. There is only one that teaches that you can do no good work to save yourself. Only God has mercy. Man has no chance to reach him without Gods grace.

My problem with this, that I just cannot get past, is that God started the whole thing, made a way for Adam and Eve to fail, when that tree could have been left out. Now, God is going to hold their actions over all our heads, and I never asked for it nor did I ask to be brought into this world. But because I was born, now I am to blame?

Plus, i cannot make "forever and ever being tortured" to be fair for about 80 years of living. Forever, and ever, fire, for x amount of actual life I never even wanted. And He loves me?

I am not trying to pot stir; I honestly cannot make that make sense in my mind.

Sister, in your confused state, this post and it's content is not the right place to try and enter a theological debate.

And to be brutally honest, yes He does love you, it is you who does not love you. Once you, like I had to, get past that hurdle, the rest becomes a piece of cake.

Just stay away from Islam whatever you do....

[Guest SDGS]

Sister, in your confused state, this post and it's content is not the right place to try and enter a theological debate.

And to be brutally honest, yes He does love you, it is you who does not love you. Once you, like I had to, get past that hurdle, the rest becomes a piece of cake.

That is fair. I had not read the thread, so apologize.

[A Muslim]

he will take from your points of good works, if you didn't have good points, you will carry his sins until he takes his right. Now, what is your case, if you murdered someone, then you repented, does this guy have a right to take from you?

Ok points. So God is keeping points, like walk a lady across the street +2 points. Save some children from a fire +10 points. Curse out your neighbor -3 points. Really this makes me want to bust out in laughter, but its really sad. The fact that you actually believe that you can actually merit anything beneficial to please God outside of Christ is heartbreaking.

Well, what is really heartbreaking is to see people believe that God found the only way to save people from sins is to die and humiliate himself, I worship a Mighty God.

Muslim, understand that you will have to account for the works that you have done, but whats worse you will have to give an account for the rejection of your remedy.

Actually this remedy theory is the one which makes me want to laugh as if God is correcting his mistake that he created people in a sinful nature and didn't give them a way to be redeemed for more than 5000 years, then he made the (plan) to correct his mistake by making himself a man and die for people. I am sorry, but I find no much difference between this theory and the theories of Greek myths.

Btw, I looked up for this "not the whammy!" and I didn't find a meaning for it, are you embarrassed of its meaning?

[A Muslim]

Dear Muslim,

I should of stated to you that I didn't write to you to debate you. I wrote to you with the purpose of saying that I think the conversation is becoming deadlocked because of faith. That is faith is believing without defenitive proof. If you or I could prove our beliefs beyond a shadow of a doubt what would be the purpose of faith? I also wanted to say something on behalf of my faith that may clarify certain points. The gist being if you follow Christ you become more selfless (beatitudes) because you seem to be interested incetives. Further I don't think, Muslims believe in loving their enemies, yet you answered me avoiding the central issue. Finally because it is matter of belief, no matter how much people tried, you didn't except their version of what happened on the cross (I think that's the point).

Since you are very respectable and respect others, I tried to finish on the note of love. Otherwise, I feel this conversation is becoming mere contradiction. But please continue with the others if you wish. Lastly, in regards to the suicide bombers, I mentioned them because during the event the camera showed many Muslims celebrating. Now, I don't know to what degree the muslims hold the suicide bombers, but I do know that being a martyr is the only gaurantee of being with Allah. Again,I apologise for not stating that I was not in it for the debate.

Oak

Ok, it's your right if you chose either to debate or not, but I just wanted to clarify some points here.

The first point is concerning loving our enemies, well, I see this word is so vague and must be defined well, what do you mean by loving your enemies? Is it just feeling pity for them? How should you act with them? For example, the Japanese attacked the US fleet at Pearl Harbor, how should you react in that situation against the Japanese as they are your enemies and you should love them? Will you defend your people? Or you will do nothing against them as you are asked to love them?

Well, there may be some celebrations from some Muslims, but the case is that killing innocents in Islam is forbidden during war unlike the OT, but this may happen from some Muslims as a reaction against the massive killings made by the US or the Israeli governments against Muslims whether they are in Palestine or in Iraq or in Afghanistan and the totally biased US situation for Israel. All this causes much hostility against US, but Islam tells us that we must differentiate between those who fight us and those who are innocent.

Edited June 24, 2011 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

The same thing happens with "looking through scriptures and analyzing beliefs" though, too. People look at the same things and draw different conclusions.

You are right, but looking through scriptures is much more efficient as it may be a bit more reasonable based on what we see not what we feel and seeing is much better than feeling. You may convince someone through looking through scriptures as he sees them in front of him, but it's much more difficult to convince him through telling a vision that you saw as he didn't see it. I know that we are not talking about convincing, but I see it proving my point that personal visions or miracles will add nothing.

Edited June 24, 2011 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

And where did Jesus quote Isaiah 53 or Daniel 9:4, Jesus didn't clarify the ransom he was talking about.

His function as Messiah was to die for the transgressions of others. That was His one and only ransom.

Jesus quoted a number of prophecies about Himself and the writers of the Gospel and the epistles also quoted a few as they recognized them. Jesus lived or acted out other prophecies without necessarily quoting them with words, like the appointed time of His Ministry on earth as prophesied by Daniel, the place where He would be born, His brief exodus to Egypt, and many more.

Well, but this point is much more important than just passing over it without quoting it especially that never told the link between his death and carrying people's sins, he just said it in a very vague way without telling why he should die. The Jews never understood that this will be the message of the Messiah and this wasn't what they understood from Isaiah 53 that it refers to the Messiah as they believed that the Messiah will come as a conqueror not that he will die for their sins, so actually Jesus did need to quote them if this was his function and why he came to Earth.

Please, remember that what is quoted in John 16 and 17 was His last address to His disciples. He was seized immediately after and could not preach anymore, let alone speak except for a few sentences here and there until He died. He gave confirmation of having accomplished His mission already because there was no backing down from His chosen path which was to be offered in sacrifice. Often times God speak of things to come as though they were. Notice how He tells the disciples in the same passage:

And why should be a backing down? Isn't he supposed to be God and God doesn't back down from His chosen path? But actually he did back down when he asked the Father to take the cup away from him, actually the chapter 17 told that work was talking about which was his message on Earth that he let people know the Father and this is the message of all prophets.

You are asking what has already been answered.

Actually it hasn't been answered, you were talking about The costly debt Adam incurred for all of us, I asked, If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice. You answered by saying that when Adam sinned he separated himself from God, brought death upon himself and provoked the cursing of the earth. All his descendants are thus born in a state of separation from Our Creator into a cursed world and with a death sentence in our souls. So actually you didn't answer me, I was asking why not how should we be condemned? We are not responsible for Adam's sin, so why were we born separated from God?

[Jorge S]

The Jews never understood that this will be the message of the Messiah and this wasn't what they understood from Isaiah 53 that it refers to the Messiah as they believed that the Messiah will come as a conqueror not that he will die for their sins, so actually Jesus did need to quote them if this was his function and why he came to Earth.

It is beyond debate that the whole Bible revolves around Jesus' atoning death. As for the Jews, please don't fail to recognize that the first Christians were those Jews who acknowledged and accepted Him as the promised Messiah. It is true that a segment of the Jewish society of those times downgraded their understanding of the Messiah to that of an earthly king that would delivered them from Rome, but your sweeping generalization cannot be sustained in view of textual and historic evidences. Jesus clearly preached that His Kingdom was not earth-bound. The same Jewish Apostles who first believed Him were the ones who elaborated further about the universal significance of Jesus as the Redeemer of all Mankind, as it was written.

It is important that you submit yourself to a focused and unprejudiced biblical study of this essential matter so you understand that salvation in only found in Jesus. This is about destiny, not religion.

And why should be a backing down? Isn't he supposed to be God and God doesn't back down from His chosen path? But actually he did back down when he asked the Father to take the cup away from him, actually the chapter 17 told that work was talking about which was his message on Earth that he let people know the Father and this is the message of all prophets.

The conclusion of the matter is that He died on the cross. In the passage you are quoting Jesus was showing his full humanity, a subject that would become important later within the history of Christianity regarding the doctrinal debates about His true Nature, both as Man and God.

We are not responsible for Adam's sin,...

But we inherited the consequences nonetheless. If your father were a wealthy man and dilapidated his entire fortune due to wrong choices and went to prison for his non-payable debt, you would be born in misery and suffer all the consequences of such state even , when you did not do anything to deserve it. Similarly, you may also inherit a genetic disease because your parents exposed themselves to high levels of radiation due to their disregard for the prescribed protective measures to avoid contamination at the nuclear plant they were employed.

Adam caused us to inherit a deadly spiritual disease. God's Justice is revealed in that instead of allowing us to die He provided the perfect cure at the expense of the life of His Only-Begotten Son.

* For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (Joh_3:16)

[nebula]

... I know that we are not talking about convincing, but I see it proving my point that personal visions or miracles will add nothing.

I believe you would think differently if you had one.

[nebula]

Actually this remedy theory is the one which makes me want to laugh as if God is correcting his mistake that he created people in a sinful nature and didn't give them a way to be redeemed for more than 5000 years, then he made the (plan) to correct his mistake by making himself a man and die for people.

I don't mind if you disagree with us, but I wish you would make an effort to understand what it is we actually believe.

God was not correcting a mistake.

To claim no one was redeemed for 5000 years is not what Scripture teaches.

Becoming man, dying, and resurrecting was more than just redemption. It was about Him becoming one of us so that we can become one with Him. ("One" having the connotation like a husband and wife becoming one or a family being one or a team being one.)