Why Choose Christianity?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

OldEnglish - Well don't tell that to the Catholics, they're responsible for putting together the book you're using to denounce them.

There are two problems with what you assert.

The first is that even if this were true, there's nothing logically contradictory in doing so. If they compiled the books that were given from God, then subsequently turned against obeying said books, then they're fully worthy of the denunciation.

Secondly, it is simply incorrect to assert that they did any such thing. The texts were complied before any such entity as the Roman Catholic Church existed. At its earliest foundation one could assert that the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea was the foundation of the RCC, in which canon was not discussed. Canon was already assumed to be established. Later canonization was discussed in response to forgeries that were posturing as scripture.

So the above claim is neither true, nor if true, any dissuasion from representing the truth of scripture to the Catholic who claims to follow said scripture but in fact follows a different gospel of works based salvation under a new Law.

[Isaiah 6:8]

OldEnglish - Well don't tell that to the Catholics, they're responsible for putting together the book you're using to denounce them.

Isaiah - I did read your first post, my point was that all the world's religions differ so it's difficult to draw a comparison between them. As for my mentioning Islam, that was just for the purpose of an example and didn't have anything to do with your previous conversation with A Muslim. Like i said before, Catholics (along with much of Eastern Orthodoxy) largely hold that faith and works are needed for salvation. As for what the Bible says on the subject, if they didn't have scriptural support I doubt their position would have remained tenable for so long.

Regardless, this post is about why Christianity is the only path to salvation, not what that entails, so let's end our discussion and get back on topic. Cheers!

First off until the printing press and Martin Luther they had full control of what the people actually saw of if any of the bible. Look at your history how many church leaders got rich off of selling Indulgences to get people out of purgatory. By the time when Luther came oe the scene they had over 1000 years of entrenchment due to power and greed. There position does not have to do with the Bible.

Also they all differ; yes but they all as I posted have some key tenants the same. God is not as great, man is not as bad and we can work our way to heaven nirvana what have you. This is what happens when you boil them all down to there basic beliefs on who god is who mankind is and how you get to heaven. Tell me are there Any different?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

First off until the printing press and Martin Luther they had full control of what the people actually saw of if any of the bible. Look at your history how many church leaders got rich off of selling Indulgences to get people out of purgatory.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies.... And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you" (2 Peter 2:1-3)

By the time when Luther came oe the scene they had over 1000 years of entrenchment due to power and greed.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ" (2 Cor. 11:13).

There position does not have to do with the Bible.

"Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God" (2 Cor. 2:17).

Also they all differ; yes but they all as I posted have some key tenants the same. God is not as great, man is not as bad and we can work our way to heaven nirvana what have you.

"... man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Galatians 2:16).

This is what happens when you boil them all down to there basic beliefs on who god is who mankind is and how you get to heaven. Tell me are there Any different?

"... for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God" (Hebrews 7:19).

[A Muslim]

Really? Is that your perception? Are you telling me that you have never known the joy of loving God so much that you have no other desire but His pleasure? Are you telling me that you don't love your family in such a way that you give of yourself for them and not for yourself? Are you so lost? Wow. I'm surprised to hear you say this. I haven't even heard something like this from some Atheists. I've mentioned being motivated by love to some of them, and they understand. But you can't? You only know how to be selfish? Simply dumbfounding.

What spirit are you given?

Did what I say negate the effect of love? I never said so, because actually working for rewards alone doesn't work and will lead to nothing. But at the same time, working for love along with rewards will stimulate much more than working for love only, especially for someone who is still new in faith. I might give myself for my family out of love if I am sure that this will lead me to pleasing God and having His rewards. I may sacrifice all what I have in this world for God because I know that God will give me much better afterwards. That doesn't mean that I won't do that out of love to God, because this is impossible, but this will stimulate me much more to sacrifice than just love only, we are human beings, we are not angels.

Jesus knows those that are His. That is first and foremost.

But Scriptures show us that we are judged according to what we have done. Many enter Heaven with nothing having followed the ways of their flesh and not the ways of the Lord.

But is salvation permanent or can salvation be lost? The Lord knows, and anyone who chooses such a gamble is a fool.

So your answer is simply proving two things, the first is that Scriptures show us that we are judged according to what we have done, this means that works are important as well as faith, and people have different works, then they will not be judge according to their works, hence different decrees.

The second thing your answer proves is that there is a possibility that salvation can be lost, meaning that you don't have an assurance of salvation.

Your answer shows ignorance of what salvation is.

The whole pattern throughout the Old Covenant was that sin has to be atoned. I don't know what the Koran states about Adam and Eve, but in our Scripture it states that the Lord slew an animal to provide covering for Adam and Eve to replace the leaves they had sewn together for themselves. That is atonement - the death of the innocent to cover the nakedness of man brought on by sin. The work man attempted to cover himself was insufficient and poor. But the Lord made a better way.

And this is what the death of Jesus was.

The number one consequence of sin is separation from God. Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God, was slain to atone for our sin, to cover our nakedness, to restore the lost communion with God. And that is our salvation.

Transformation, then, follows. But that requires the growth process.

Well, the Quran stated that they Adam and Eve just repented to Allah, and Allah accepted them, so simple as Ezekiel says.

As for the atonement, this is really weird, because if this was the case, then Christians must fulfill the laws of the Old Testament and leave only that law, but actually they neither obey that law nor the other laws, but it appears as if the law is taken selectively when it meets their belief, besides, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 (although there is a doubt in referring this story to Jesus), and he didn't need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers, plus, the same question still remains, where did Jesus say "I am the sacrifice of the OT", or anything like that?

Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb? You actually said it, He didn't kill Himself for Adam and Eve, He sent an animal. The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies.

The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person.

I can show you the Scriptures if you need to see them.

Ok, but show me what Jesus said about it not Paul.

Who mentioned equalizing? God is just. But what is "fair" is a matter of perceptions.

Heaven is not a reward. Either it is you home, or it is not.

God's love is not a reward. He just loves.

But as has been mentioned, we are rewarded according to what have done. Many will enter Heaven with nothing to show for their lives. Others will receive few rewards. Others will receive many rewards.

We are not told what these rewards are, for the mysteries of Heaven are great.

But to be in the presence of the Lord - what could be better than this? Who needs riches or power or virgins when you are just near to the Lord?

Ok

[A Muslim]

God is NOT fair. God is Holy and Just. If God were interested in being fair, He would have destroyed mankind a long time ago. Rather, God sought a means of redemption that would not compromise His noliness and at the same time satisfy His justice. What that meant was someone able to pay the penalty for man's sin and to take full weight of God's justice upon Himself in our stead. God sent His own Son, Jesus to fulfill that goal.

To answer you along with what you said here:

To answer your question, No. My exegesis would not lead that direction. If it did the passage would be self-contradictory. There is no need to call for repentence if forgiveness was not being offered in the first place. Salvation was by grace through faith in the Christ to come, whereas we look to the past and to Christ who has come.

You are proving that your god is not just, as he didn't offer forgiveness or salvation to all these ages before Jesus for more than 5000 years and gave the grace for some people 2000 years ago. Either your god is not omniscient, as he didn't know how people can be redeemed for 5000 years, or that he is not omnipotent because he was forced to achieve a kind of salvation that he will humiliate himself in, or that he is simply unjust as he offers some people forgiveness and doesn't offer it to the others. Btw, if God knows that a man has a sinful nature, why did he let him sinning without offering him a way to repent? Is God torturing people for something he created in them? And then he gives them the redemption through his son as a grace, well, if that is the case, then it is not a grace, he is just correcting his mistake after more than 5000 years.

The number of good deeds from one person to the next is irrelevant. The person with more good deeds is no closer to God for all His efforts than the person with less. God does not have scales and does not weight our deeds in terms of salvation. God has ONE standard of righteousness. He does not grade us on a sliding scale. You are either as righteous as God is, or you are lost. The ONLY person to meet that standard is Jesus, and He offers you His righteousness so that you are fit to stand before YHVH.

I am not talking about works alone, I am asking about two people having the righteousness of Jesus you are talking about, one of them having more works than the other, are they equal? Will any of them have rewards than the other? If not, why do you see this is not against God's justice?

Adam Clarke was making a homiletic application. I was speaking to the critical, historical persepctive of the passage.

Does a homily support lying? I think he is clearly talking about the case before Jesus, and what he is saying is totally logical and matching with what the verse is saying. Why didn't he talk about this historic perspective you are giving?

Edited June 2, 2011 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

Nope, Islam is just like all the above. You must work your way into heaven. You have made a point in telling us that if your good works outweigh your bad ones, you will make it, upon Allah's mercy but still you must do good works, and even then, if Allah is in a bad mood, you still will not get to go to heaven.

It's not about bad mood as Allah is just and He told us that the man who made good works his reward will not be lost, a good work may not be accepted but this will be due to a defect in the work itself as a bad intention for example, but I believe that Allah is more Merciful to us than a mother to her child.

This is the same as every religion on earth, Save for Christianity. Christianity is the ONLY Religion that teaches that we do not do anything to earn heaven. That Good works flow from God, as he changes us step by step into a new creation.

This was my question before which you didn't answer:

Of course even faith doesn't come from our efforts, and that's what I meant. This was an answer to Isaiah 6:8's reply, I was talking about the above point that God is fair, he answered me by saying that the reason for that is so that no one thinks that he made his works out of his own. Well, the same thing applies on faith, no one should think that he had the faith out of his own. And you believe that the one who has faith is rewarded in heaven while the non believer will be punished although the believer didn't have faith by his own but it was God's grace, so why don't you apply the same concept on works?

In answer to something you said earlier, Yes we are changed, but its a process, sometimes the changes are quick, others are slower, but its a process. Thats why we still have some sin in us. Again, when we die, the work is completed.

Which part I said you are answering here?

As for the link you gave here, I see its summary through this question:

Of course, the Muslims will tell us the Qur'an teaches that Allah is gracious to them and that they do not earn their forgiveness. I acknowledge this. The Qur'an says, ". . . Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded," (8:29), and also, ". . . But Allah will choose for his special mercy whom he will - for Allah is lord of grace abounding," (2:105). But, as you can see from the quotes 1, 2, and 3 above, Allah's forgiveness is tied to the Muslim's works. Therefore, I ask the question, how is it really grace if it is by also by works? Isn't grace the unmerited favor from God? It would seem the Islamic system of salvation is more a reward than grace.

Man is not perfect, neither his works are, God gives the full reward if a man intended to do a good deed and he wasn't able to do it, and if a man was about to do a sin and he remembered Allah, so he didn't commit it, Allah will replace it with merits, Allah gives high rewards for small works and gives us times where rewards are multiplied. If a man made a good work, he will take ten times of this work's reward and if he made a sin, it will be accounted as only one sin. If a man was a non-Muslim, then he repented and began doing good deeds, his past sins will be converted to works. Finally, Allah won't let any Muslim who believes that Allah is One and believes in Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), he won't be in hell eternally, even if his sins overweighed his good works, he will be in hell according to his sins, then he will enter Heaven. Do you think all that is not a grace?

Actually, he did, and showed it. Everything in there religious life was a prophetic type and shadow of Jesus to come. Also, the saints that died before Jesus were taken into heaven as well. You see his death for our sins, yours included, was powerful enough to even go back in history.

So what do you think of the verse I cited from Ezekiel? What did Jesus add?

[childeye]

name='A Muslim'

So what do you think of the verse I cited from Ezekiel? What did Jesus add?

The verse from Ezekial is about a fair and unfair judgment. Men think we can do good a little while and then deserve the right to indulge ourselves in wickedness. God says this is unfair since it clearly patronizes God in a false worship. What does Jesus add to this? The prospect of a righteousness that will never patronize God. To do good works for carnal reward is patronizing. To do good works from spiritual virtue is Godly understanding. To do good for merits sake merits nothing but perhaps an applaud from one's audience. He who truly loves does not do so for reward nor for fear of punishment. Those who truly love with Godly Love do so even if punished for it, as Christ did. In this, God who is Love, is worshipped as such and no reward is sought, for just being able to Love is a thankfulness that one knows God.

The Christ is the True Image of the True God. In one post you talked about what you think of God. There is God in the Christ so what do you think? The Truth entered the world and men judged themsleves according to what they said they saw when they beheld the Truth. And this Image, this Christ, revealed a love that surpasses human understanding since he sacrificed himself for the ungodly saying forgive them, they know not what they do.

[nebula]

Did what I say negate the effect of love? I never said so, because actually working for rewards alone doesn't work and will lead to nothing. But at the same time, working for love along with rewards will stimulate much more than working for love only, especially for someone who is still new in faith. I might give myself for my family out of love if I am sure that this will lead me to pleasing God and having His rewards. I may sacrifice all what I have in this world for God because I know that God will give me much better afterwards. That doesn't mean that I won't do that out of love to God, because this is impossible, but this will stimulate me much more to sacrifice than just love only, we are human beings, we are not angels.

OK, I see I misunderstood what you said. My apologies

But to go back to what started this - why do you need to know what rewards you are promised?

Jesus told us to store up for ourselves treasures in Heaven. Now we can imagine what those "treasures" are. But what if Heaven is so glorious that mere descriptions of those rewards would not suffice?

Really, why does "knowing the reward" make one religion more superior or more genuine than another?

I am quite content with being surprised.

[nebula]

So your answer is simply proving two things, the first is that Scriptures show us that we are judged according to what we have done, this means that works are important as well as faith, and people have different works, then they will not be judge according to their works, hence different decrees.

The judgment given concerning works is about rewards, not about salvation. That is the key difference.

Going to Heaven is not the reward! Salvation is not the reward!

Heaven is an inheritance given to the sons and daughters of God.

The second thing your answer proves is that there is a possibility that salvation can be lost, meaning that you don't have an assurance of salvation.

I didn't say that.

John 10

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all ; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Your answer shows ignorance of what salvation is.

I know what salvation is by what the Scriptures say.

Well, the Quran stated that they Adam and Eve just repented to Allah, and Allah accepted them, so simple as Ezekiel says.

Were they allowed to remain in or return to the Garden of Eden? Did they bear no penalty for their sin? Were their eyes re-closed to their nakedeness?

[nebula]

As for the atonement, this is really weird, because if this was the case, then Christians must fulfill the laws of the Old Testament and leave only that law, but actually they neither obey that law nor the other laws, but it appears as if the law is taken selectively when it meets their belief, besides, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 (although there is a doubt in referring this story to Jesus), and he didn't need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers, plus, the same question still remains, where did Jesus say "I am the sacrifice of the OT", or anything like that?

Everything given in the OT is a pattern for what is to come.

Although Jesus never said the words, "I am the sacrifice of the OT," He did say things that alluded to this.

First there is the testimony of the angel who said, "She will bear a Son ; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins." (Matt. 1:21)

Next there is the testimony of John the Baptist who said:

John 1:29 - The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd ; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18)

26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat ; this is My body." 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26)

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old ? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going ; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things ? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things ? 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven : the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (John 3)

Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb? You actually said it, He didn't kill Himself for Adam and Eve, He sent an animal. The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies.

Hebrews 10

1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins ? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR 6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. 7 "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' " 8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law ), 9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins ; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person.

"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:18)