Rapture Question

[Guest]

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Good answer, Omegaman.

You put a lot of thought and study into this!

Wow, thanks rollinthunder, it is true that I have, and this is just the surface, but I know from your posts, that you have also. I know, that we do not agree on a lot, and to see you compliment me, and not rebutt it, is refreshing. I saw that you added me to your friends list, thank you, I feel honored.

[rollinTHUNDER]

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Good answer, Omegaman.

You put a lot of thought and study into this!

Wow, thanks rollinthunder, it is true that I have, and this is just the surface, but I know from your posts, that you have also. I know, that we do not agree on a lot, and to see you compliment me, and not rebutt it, is refreshing. I saw that you added me to your friends list, thank you, I feel honored.

Even though we may not agree on all points, I can appreciate a well thought out answer with scripture. Just don't expect me to enter into one of those chat rooms. I could get beat up pretty bad in there.

[Massorite]

It strikes me that this thread is supposed to be about the rapture, and it's relationship in time, to the appearance of the anti-christ, not a debate about pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib. In my dissertation, I had to establish a post trib position in order to demonstrate why the rapture has to be after the revelation of anti-christ.

My conclusion is based on 3 premises:

1. anti-christ appears during or just prior to the trib (depending on which event signifies the beginning of the trib)

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

2. The rapture is just after the resurrection of believers

1 Thess 4:

16 And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air.

3. the resurrection of believers is after the trib

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 calls this the first resurrection

sequence:

abomination of desolation (anti-christ?) - mat 24:15

great tribulation - Matt 24:21

martyrs in the trib - Rev 20:4

resurrection of these martyrs - Rev 20:4,5

rapture of the saints - 1 Thess 4:17

IF the anti-christ is pictured in matt 24:15 (you be the judge)

and IF the first resurrection of believers includes those who die in the trib (again you judge)

and IF the living saints will not be raptured before the dead in Christ are raised, (it is what Paul said, after all)

then the answer to the topic of this thread (to you think we will be raptured before antichrist appears on the scene)

is after.

The scriptures i posted are true and accurate. The logic is perfect and obvious. The only questions are the validity of my assumptions, indicated by the bold "IF"s or valid, and can you face the conclusion if so.

Please, be my guest to invalidate those assumptions, and if they are invalid, then ignore them, if not, then face them.

I have already presented this argument, I would love to see it refuted, but let's not make this about pre-mid-post, more than we have to, there are other threads for that.

Also relevant:

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Do we have any didactics [direct teaching outside the riddles and dark sayings (Nu 12:6-8) of symbolic prophecy] regarding a resurrection of believers in addition to the "first resurrection"?

Matt. 24:29-30 " IMMEDIATLY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven and the powers of heavens shall be shaken; And then shall APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN in heaven: and they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory"

Every single time I see or hear this question asked it just amazes me greatly when those who are supposed to be students of the bible profess that Jesus will return before the antichrist appears and the Great Tribulation takes place. Because these two verses say it all, and they are very clear and easy to understand. How can anybody who is a student of the bible MISS what these two verses say? Any body who says that any other verse says anything other than what these two verses are saying that these two verses which came out of the mouth of Jesus before his death on the cross are saying that Jesus was wrong.

The false belief is that Jesus will return before the antichrist appears and the Great Tribulation take place, but these two verses say the exact opposite by saying "IMMEDIATLY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS".

[Guest]

Even though we may not agree on all points, I can appreciate a well thought out answer with scripture. Just don't expect me to enter into one of those chat rooms. I could get beat up pretty bad in there.

I'd be glad to make your aquaintence in chat, if you would like to drop in. I am not in the habit of beating people up there, lol. However, I understand what you mean. In fact, being of the 'postie' persuasion personally, I am well aquainted with how difficult the 'live' aspect of chat can be. It is one thing to know what you beleive, it is quite another to be able to defend it on the spot, when questions are fired at you and you do not have tons of noted spread out in front of you. Even though mine tends to be a minoriy position there most of the time, the debates, when they happen, are typically civil and I find myself learning a lot. So, I do not feel beat up, I just feel challenged, and I think that is a good thing. See ya around the forum sometime again, I am sure.

[Massorite]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

After and JohnDB used all of the scripture I would have used.

[praiser91]

Before becuse darkness cant rule in the light the church has to leave first in revolation 4-5 John is n heaven looking around the n chapter 6:1 Jesus breaks the first seal aka the white horse going out conquering Jesus already conquered so I belive this to b the antichrist and since John is seeing this from heaven I belive the church will b called up first

[taylor30]

Clearly BEFORE. The church is the restrainer that must be removed before Antichrist can appear on scene.

[Lauri]

(1 John 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

(1 John 2:22 KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(1 John 4:3 KJV) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

(2 John 1:7 KJV) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The anit-Christ is already among us, his rise to power is just not complete yet. The whole world will wonder after the beast.

Revelation 13:3-4 KJV

(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

(4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The beast is a kingdom or nation. All other nations will give this one full power.

Revelation 17:11-18 KJV

(11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

(12) And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

(13) These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

(14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

(15) And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

(16) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(17) For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

(18) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 14:6-12 KJV

(6) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

(8) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

(9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God warns us not to follow this deception.

Revelation 18:2-10 KJV

(2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

(6) Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

(7) How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

(9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

This nation will appear to follow God, it will be a lie.

2 Corinthians 11:14 KJV

(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 13:13-15 KJV

(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

[Floatingaxe]

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

He will be on the scene, but not recognized by most. He won't even know, as he will be considered an up-and-coming great man of peace and diplomacy.

[NTMicaiah]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NASB95)

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.