Rapture Question

[Guest]

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.....

Do you see that?

The ones who were taken in the flood were destroyed. Who was left behind???

-Daena.

Hi Daena,

Don't you mean the ones who were left were destroyed? They were left and swept away by God's wrath.

Noah and his family were taken up, floating on the water in the sky above the highest mountains, where the clouds normally are.

Sorry rollinTHUNDER, but Daena is exactly right. Even the esteemed pre-tribber Walvoord, agrees that this is a passage that depicts those taken, as taken in judgemnent to destruction. You might hold your thoughts on this until you get out your bible and follow along with this If after watching that, and examining the scriptures, you still think this is a picture of the rapture, well, God bless you. If on the other hand, you are convinced after that, that those taken away in this passage, are not taken in the rapture, this does not meant that you have to give up your existing theories about the timing of the rapture, it would only mean than this particular passage is not talking about that.

Oh, and nice catch Daena . No reason why we cannot help each other more accurately divide God's word, always with humility and respect, in love, with an eye toward improving the body, not debating for debate's sake. I cannot count how many times I have been corrected by people like you, who have the conviction to speak up. I am thankful to all who do so, even if/when I disagree with their points.

[Daena]

Oh, and nice catch Daena . No reason why we cannot help each other more accurately divide God's word, always with humility and respect, in love, with an eye toward improving the body, not debating for debate's sake. I cannot count how many times I have been corrected by people like you, who have the conviction to speak up. I am thankful to all who do so, even if/when I disagree with their points.

Oh sorry Iv been busy on another forum and things I will catch up later.

I like this forum! It has a nice layout and things, and - I just like it.

Im just a learner a student and I have a lot to learn. Some things I say is just the way I see it. I dont know if Im right or wrong.

But I have more to put as i was thinking about it - that and other things.

God bless

-Daena.

[nChrist]

Things to ponder and consider:

1 - This Age of Grace - also known as the Church Age will end. It will end with the "fullness of the Gentiles" - the last member added to the Church Which is the Body of Christ.

2 - Daniel knew NOTHING about the Church Which is the Body of Christ because it was a mystery not made known to other ages.

3 - The Tribulation Period was determined against Israel - NOT the Church Which is the Body of Christ.

4 - Great numbers of people will be Saved during the Tribulation Period, but it's a different type of Salvation than in this Age of Grace. Those Saved during the Tribulation Period will have to endure to the end, refuse the mark of the beast, face torture, face being hunted, and face any other horrible thing you can think of. Those who can't endure and take the mark are damned, regardless of what kinds of horrors they were subjected to. Obviously, this is not required in this Age of Grace. Bluntly, some serious works for Salvation are required during the Tribulation Period.

5 - Don't confuse the Church Which is the Body of Christ with Israel in Bible Prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Israel has not been replaced or forgotten by God. God has ancient Promises to Israel that will be kept most perfectly.

6 - Don't confuse The Rapture with the Second Coming of Christ. They are obviously two separate and distinct events.

7 - For those who want to dig deeper for themselves - the Great Restrainer - A song sung in heaven in Revelation by who - the heavenly hosts following Jesus Christ at His Second Coming - Jewish Marriage Customs as compared to the Bride of Christ, His Church.

In short, the Church Which is the Body of Christ was NOT formed for WRATH - rather ESCAPE AND RESCUE. The Tribulation Period is Israel's preparation for their Messiah and King, Jesus Christ at His Second Coming. Great hosts of people will be martyred during the Tribulation Period for failure to take the mark of the beast and refusal to worship him. As a stark contrast, Salvation in this Age of Grace is accompanied immediately with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God and the sealing of our hearts as a purchased possession. No combination of powers can break the Seal of the Holy Spirit. No further works are required for our Salvation in this Age of Grace. Lastly, God made Promises to His Church and Promises to Israel. They are not one and the same, nor did the Church replace Israel. Separate Promises will be kept with each.

[joi]

In reading about the four horsemen in Rev. 6, we find that they have come to earth to take away any peace on earth.

The man on the white horse is not Christ! I have heard this one called Govermental Tyranny. "Went forth conquerig.."

The red horse represents warfare. "Power was given him to take peace from the earth and that they should kill one another"

The black horse represents famine and the pale horse represents death. "..A measure of wheat for a penny. . " and "..and his name that sat on him was Death.."

If you read this sixth chapter you will find that it explains itself.

We are not to confuse the white horse and it's rider here for Jesus. He rides another horse and at a seperate time.

[Guest]

It strikes me that this thread is supposed to be about the rapture, and it's relationship in time, to the appearance of the anti-christ, not a debate about pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib. In my dissertation, I had to establish a post trib position in order to demonstrate why the rapture has to be after the revelation of anti-christ.

My conclusion is based on 3 premises:

1. anti-christ appears during or just prior to the trib (depending on which event signifies the beginning of the trib)

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

2. The rapture is just after the resurrection of believers

1 Thess 4:

16 And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air.

3. the resurrection of believers is after the trib

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 calls this the first resurrection

sequence:

abomination of desolation (anti-christ?) - mat 24:15

great tribulation - Matt 24:21

martyrs in the trib - Rev 20:4

resurrection of these martyrs - Rev 20:4,5

rapture of the saints - 1 Thess 4:17

IF the anti-christ is pictured in matt 24:15 (you be the judge)

and IF the first resurrection of believers includes those who die in the trib (again you judge)

and IF the living saints will not be raptured before the dead in Christ are raised, (it is what Paul said, after all)

then the answer to the topic of this thread (to you think we will be raptured before antichrist appears on the scene)

is after.

The scriptures i posted are true and accurate. The logic is perfect and obvious. The only questions are the validity of my assumptions, indicated by the bold "IF"s or valid, and can you face the conclusion if so.

Please, be my guest to invalidate those assumptions, and if they are invalid, then ignore them, if not, then face them.

I have already presented this argument, I would love to see it refuted, but let's not make this about pre-mid-post, more than we have to, there are other threads for that.

Also relevant:

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[Strader327]

That's a interesting question Wyguy, since to me it's too hard to tell currently, it would be good if I were you to hope for a pretrib rapture, but be preparded for either a mid trib or even post trib rapture.

[ColeTurner]

It doesn't matter when the rapture will happen. What matters is being ready to meet God anytime. As grim as it sounds, you could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

[Guest Kasey777]

That question is one scholars have been trying to nail down for centuries...not sure anyone can give you an absolute on that.

There are three senarios, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Post-Trip Rapture. In reading Revelation, I suppose one could take a stand for all three of these positions.

Personally, I am leaning towards Mid-Trib, doesn't mean I am right though.In Revelation 7: 3 we see the four angels being instructed not to damage the earth, sea or trees until all of the servants of God have the seal of God on their foreheads. So, no rapture yet up to Chapter 7.

In Revelation chapter 9 verse 4 the locust are told they could only harm the people who "did not" have the seal of God on their foreheads. This would indicate to me that believers were still present and no Rapture yet at chapter 9 in Revelation.

There are 3 "Woe's" and Revelation chapter 9:11 is the end of the 1st Woe, with two more to come, see Revelation 9:12.

In Revelation 14:14-16 Here we see the angel of the Lord telling "The Son of Man", Jesus to harvest the earth and He did and the earth was reaped., it appears the Rapture is here, placing us at the 3 1/2 year mark of the anti-christ reign.

The next 3 1/2 years the false peace of the anti-christ will end and the terror of his reign begins.

For me, looking at what occurs In Revelation from Chapter 1 through Chapter 14 is something we need to fully grasp. Believers will experience much of this as Matthew 24 - the whole chapter confirm's.

Those are my thoughts on this....

Blessings

First, PLEASE let's not turn this into a debate on whether there will be a Rapture or not. Thanks.

Okay, my question to those that do believe we will be raptured:

Do you think we will be raptured before the Antichrist appears on the scene, or after?

's.

[rollinTHUNDER]

It strikes me that this thread is supposed to be about the rapture, and it's relationship in time, to the appearance of the anti-christ, not a debate about pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib. In my dissertation, I had to establish a post trib position in order to demonstrate why the rapture has to be after the revelation of anti-christ.

My conclusion is based on 3 premises:

1. anti-christ appears during or just prior to the trib (depending on which event signifies the beginning of the trib)

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

2. The rapture is just after the resurrection of believers

1 Thess 4:

16 And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air.

3. the resurrection of believers is after the trib

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 calls this the first resurrection

sequence:

abomination of desolation (anti-christ?) - mat 24:15

great tribulation - Matt 24:21

martyrs in the trib - Rev 20:4

resurrection of these martyrs - Rev 20:4,5

rapture of the saints - 1 Thess 4:17

IF the anti-christ is pictured in matt 24:15 (you be the judge)

and IF the first resurrection of believers includes those who die in the trib (again you judge)

and IF the living saints will not be raptured before the dead in Christ are raised, (it is what Paul said, after all)

then the answer to the topic of this thread (to you think we will be raptured before antichrist appears on the scene)

is after.

The scriptures i posted are true and accurate. The logic is perfect and obvious. The only questions are the validity of my assumptions, indicated by the bold "IF"s or valid, and can you face the conclusion if so.

Please, be my guest to invalidate those assumptions, and if they are invalid, then ignore them, if not, then face them.

I have already presented this argument, I would love to see it refuted, but let's not make this about pre-mid-post, more than we have to, there are other threads for that.

Also relevant:

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

13Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Good answer, Omegaman.

You put a lot of thought and study into this!

[Guest]

.

Good answer, Omegaman.

You put a lot of thought and study into this!

Wow, thanks rollinthunder, it is true that I have, and this is just the surface, but I know from your posts, that you have also. I know, that we do not agree on a lot, and to see you compliment me, and not rebutt it, is refreshing. I saw that you added me to your friends list, thank you, I feel honored.