Free Grace Theology Vs. Lordship Salvation

[Byron A]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

Well for heaven sakes! none of us will ever have salvation then! Perfect? perfect? I mean really? Yeshua was perfect because He was God in the flesh, He was perfect because He kept Torah perfectly because He is the Word in the flesh. I am so grateful that He accepts me with all my flaws, I am grateful that He accepts me as I struggle to walk in His perfect ways, I am grateful that I can strive to emulate Him in all ways but know that when I fail He is there to pick me back up and set me back on His path and forgive me when I confess my sins to Him.

My whole point was that we can't earn our salvation. Only through faith in Jesus Christ can we be saved, because no one can be perfect in this life apart from Christ.

[Guest man]

I am talking about being perfect on our own. The only way for us to become perfect in reality is by having faith in Jesus Christ. Like an old pastor of mine used to say, When God looks at us, it is through Christ-colored glasses. We are perfect only because Christ was perfect.

Explain the people mentioned in this passage.

Romans 2

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[Byron A]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

He actually did say that.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works.

A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift.

[Guest man]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

[other one]

How come no one has voted in the poll? I am really curious about the break down of percentages of everyone's opinion.

I been busy......

[~candice~]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act.

[mizzdy]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

He actually did say that.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works.

A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1991b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift.

If someone comes to me and says come this way and get out of harms way, I have a choice either to put my trust in that person and follow them to safety or distrust them and walk in my own understanding. Faith is strong trust, trust that God will do as He promises and if He is going to do that for me I am going to completely trust Him and follow Him. Following follows trust, they go hand in hand or should. Or trust is incomplete, trust is followed by an action.

No one here is debating salvation is a free gift, it is nothing we can do earns it it is given freely, rewards or blessings come from following His ways, they come from being in convenant with Him. Due. 30:1, 15, tells us that God sets up cursings and blessing for those who obey or disobey, Matt. 6:1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. When we believe, confess and return to Him He gives us the ablities to walk in His Torah we should not sound our own horn in what we do, we serve Him and His children and in that we do not boast or our rewards are tarnished and unworthy.

[Byron A]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act.

Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do.

I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do.

[~candice~]

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him.

This explains a lot. Byron, define 'placing faith in Christ'? Faith is a trust that bears fruit in our actions. It's not a "think" or "feel" but the basis on which we act.

Faith is trust. Simple as that. Do you trust Christ to have taken care of your eternal salvation for you? I do.

I am not saying that we shouldn't follow Him. I do follow Him. I am a disciple of Christ, obedient to Him. All I am saying is that obedience is not necessary for salvation. It is necessary for sanctification. And sanctification is necessary for the abundant life Christ said He came to give us, as well as necessary for stocking up heavenly treasures (rewards in heaven) as Jesus commanded us to do.

Bryon,

It is the faith that saves, but you can't have the faith without the action. Faith and action are ALWAYS seen together. No action, means no faith, means no salvation.

[Byron A]

No, in order to earn Salvation one must be perfect. That is how Christ was able to earn salvation for us. He was perfect, so His Perfection covers our imperfections. What this man was asking is how does one earn salvation? So Christ told him. He didn't ask if there was another way than trying to do it on his own. If he had, I am sure Christ would have told him, "Put your faith in me." But this young man gave up trying after he realized that he couldn't do it on his own. How many people do the same today? Give up on Salvation when they realize that they can't be perfect? Far too many, in my humble opinion.

He actually did say that.

Matthew 19

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

No, placing faith in Christ is not the same as following Him. The latter is known as sanctification, the former as justification. The result of justification is salvation, which can never be lost due to eternal life being eternal. The result of the sanctification is heavenly rewards, which can be earned and lost by good and evil works.

A good article on rewards which goes into more depth than I have is http://www.faithalon...1b/Rewards.html . I would just like to point out that the New Testament promises us rewards based upon our good works. Salvation, however, is not a reward but a free gift.

If someone comes to me and says come this way and get out of harms way, I have a choice either to put my trust in that person and follow them to safety or distrust them and walk in my own understanding. Faith is strong trust, trust that God will do as He promises and if He is going to do that for me I am going to completely trust Him and follow Him. Following follows trust, they go hand in hand or should. Or trust is incomplete, trust is followed by an action.

No one here is debating salvation is a free gift, it is nothing we can do earns it it is given freely, rewards or blessings come from following His ways, they come from being in convenant with Him. Due. 30:1, 15, tells us that God sets up cursings and blessing for those who obey or disobey, Matt. 6:1 Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. When we believe, confess and return to Him He gives us the ablities to walk in His Torah we should not sound our own horn in what we do, we serve Him and His children and in that we do not boast or our rewards are tarnished and unworthy.

I used to be Messianic, growing up. However, Torah-obedience (which is NOT valid for gentiles, Acts 15) has nothing to do with either justification nor sanctification, so I believe it is outside the scope of this discussion. I will just say that I disagree with "the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience" idea as being of the old covenant and having no place in the New Covenant.

And no one is saying that we should boast about anything. The rewards that I mentioned are eternal rewards that will will be awarded by God on Judgement Day. No one will be sounding their own alarm nor boasting about it. It will be awarded by God. Not doing good works will not result in the termination of our salvation, but rather result in chastisement in this life and loss of rewards in the World to Come.