Prefall Death

[Guest shiloh357]

Technically it is a valid argument to say that sin was not a creative act of God, but the fact that Adam was already sinful before he actually committed sin, makes us conclude that, at least, sinfulness must have been a creative act of God. The question is: was Adam already sinful at the moment of his creation or he became sinful afterwards? But how can somebody who is not sinful become sinful?

Adam was not sinful prior to committing sin. That is the point. To make sin a creative act of God is to attribute sin to a God who cannot look upon it, much less create it.

Became sinful when he decided to be disobedient.

I am sorry, maybe I musunderstood your previous post. I thought you said thad Adam was already sinful before he ate the fruit. But is it not the decision to disobey a sinful act? How can you be not sinful and commit a sinful act?

If I make a statement: a certain guy is incapable to perform a certain action A. If the same guy, afterwards, decides to perform action A and actually performs action A, then, logically, my premise was wrong.

Yes, I saw that I had made a typographcial error. The sentencie should have read that Adam was not already sinful prior to sinning in the garden. I can see how that caused some confusion. In fact the whole sentence was so clumsily worded, I went badk and just ommitted from my post. I post a lot when I am tired and am prone to make such errors.

Now as to your question: I did not say Adam was incapable of sinning. So you have applied a false premise to my postion. My point to Fanucci is that Adam was not engineered with a propensity to sin. He was given free will and he chose to disobey.

It is my view that Adam became sinful the minute he committed himself to disobeying God and ate of the fruit. Perfection does not imply the inability to beocme imperfect.

[JimiSurvivor]

These scriptures all pertain to people. Physical immortality was only a promise made only to humans one which, for that matter, was never realized. If they had not disobeyed but instead chosen to partake of the Tree of Life they would have lived forever. In fact, even after sinning they could have eaten from it and lived forever. Spiritual death is not inextricably linked to physical death.

How do you deal with this?

Ro 5

Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Rom 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

Rom 5:15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

Rom 5:16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)

[JimiSurvivor]

Eating of the Tree of Life was the only alternative presented to keep one from dying.

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I think, but have not studied it in any detail whatsoever, that heaven would exceed (or maybe extend is a better word) the pre fall condition. Otherwise, it just seems like everything is being reset.

Not reset (very close) but reconciled, "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I am a creationist to the extent that I believe God created everything. Whether or not He did it in literal days or figurative days, whether it was six thousand years ago, or ten thousand years ago, doesn't matter so much to me. I think the important thing scripture wants us to take away from the narrative is that God created.

I agree with your second point but for the above I submit that if that were true then that God created would be all that scripture would say, but it says more and "Every word of God is flawless" (Proverbs 30:5). "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God" (Deut. 8:3; Matt. 4:4).

If scripture says more, we'd be remiss to pick and choose from among every flawless word.

[Guest shiloh357]

These scriptures all pertain to people.

Only because human death was what was relevant to the point Paul was making. Nothing in that passage suggests that the decaying state of the world is not connected to Adam's fall.

Spiritual death is not inextricably linked to physical death.

That is not true. The removal of physical death will be part of the effects of the removal of sin from the world. The hope of the resurrection is the direct result of spirtitual restoration which is only possible through God's plan of recemption that is realized through Christ. The removal of physical death, disease, physical infirmities, and decay are part of what we as Christians look forward to never having to experience again in the New Earth.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

These scriptures all pertain to people.

Only because human death was what was relevant to the point Paul was making. Nothing in that passage suggests that the decaying state of the world is not connected to Adam's fall.

And specifically we can see that the decaying state of the world is a result of the fall, "To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life" (Genesis 3:17), and that animals didn't eat each other "Then God said,

[JimiSurvivor]

Eating of the Tree of Life was the only alternative presented to keep one from dying.

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

This is illogical in that it is based on the false premise that the ONLY reason there is no record of something dying is that death did not exist. Asking me to accept this begs the question. In fact, there might be many reasons why such an event was not recorded. You cannot base any case on a lack of evidence. I would be equally illogical for to ask you to show an scriptural example of animals receiving what we would consider a mortal wound and yet they did not die. An example might be an animal who fell from a great height, or one who was struck by a massive falling tree or beaten by meteors. No such example exists but since you believe what you do you must assume that it did, or that it might have or would in time. This is all silly of course.

[Guest shiloh357]

Eating of the Tree of Life was the only alternative presented to keep one from dying.

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

This is illogical in that it is based on the false premise that the ONLY reason there is no record of something dying is that death did not exist. Asking me to accept this begs the question. In fact, there might be many reasons why such an event was not recorded. You cannot base any case on a lack of evidence. I would be equally illogical for to ask you to show an scriptural example of animals receiving what we would consider a mortal wound and yet they did not die. An example might be an animal who fell from a great height, or one who was struck by a massive falling tree or beaten by meteors. No such example exists but since you believe what you do you must assume that it did, or that it might have or would in time. This is all silly of course.

Actually, none of those events would have occurred in the world before the fall. There was no death, sickness, injury, pain, etc. before the fall.

[JimiSurvivor]

Eating of the Tree of Life was the only alternative presented to keep one from dying.

I can not find in scripture where anything dies before the fall. Can you show me where it is?

This is illogical in that it is based on the false premise that the ONLY reason there is no record of something dying is that death did not exist. Asking me to accept this begs the question. In fact, there might be many reasons why such an event was not recorded. You cannot base any case on a lack of evidence. I would be equally illogical for to ask you to show an scriptural example of animals receiving what we would consider a mortal wound and yet they did not die. An example might be an animal who fell from a great height, or one who was struck by a massive falling tree or beaten by meteors. No such example exists but since you believe what you do you must assume that it did, or that it might have or would in time. This is all silly of course.

Actually, none of those events would have occurred in the world before the fall. There was no death, sickness, injury, pain, etc. before the fall.

So now, we have creatures who cannot die of old age AND because God continually manipulates and micromanages the environment. Trees are not allowed to fall on animals. Goats are warned by God before they stumble and slip into a ravines. There are no accidents of that sort or if there are the animals heal instantly like Wolverine. This story gets bigger and bigger as possibilities. Like a gas your theory expands until it fills the container which in this case includes countless creatures and countless configurations of circumstances for endless ages.