Dr Thomas Ice - Imminency and the Any -Moment Rapture

[Guest]

Regarding the actual topic though, I find Dr. Ice's position to be problematic, simply because the the bible does not teach immanency (as pre-tribbers mean in), it teaches expectancy, not the same. If anything, it teaches delay, and after 2000 years, we see it is correct, and the early church understood it correctly too.

 

~

 

Amen~!

 

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:8-10

[iamlamad]

Gee, do I really want to get into all of this now, sort of lost the mood, lol.

 

For now just one thing since it is easy:

 

 

Another HUGE Problem: the bible is clear that the Antichrist will OVERCOME and prevail over the saints. Do posttribbers disagree with God here, and somehow think they will survive?

 

Post-tribbers believe everything God says, that is why they take the position that they do.

 

Matt 14:22 - Young's Literal Translation:

 

And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.

 

Not that it really matters, if the antichrist wipes a believer out, he / she is better off, so who cares anyway, it is a not issue.

 

I fail to see a huge problem, or any problem what-so-ever, what am I missing?

I think post-tribbers see any gathering as the rapture! Pretrib sees only the rapture gathering as the rapture. That is why we are pretrib.

 

The pretrib view shows the true character of God - that NO FATHER would purposely send His children into great tribulation - especially  when He has promised them a way of escape, and set no appointment with them for His wrath. What kind of character does the post trib view show of God?  Is our Father God is SO MUCH better than earthly fathers.

 

It is not that some or a few believers will be wiped out, it is that ALL of them will be wiped out. Why would a loving God choose such a method to bring His children into heaven, through beheading, when He has promised to come and get us and take us to His heavenly home?  No, God would not do that. The ONLY people that will forced to face beheading for their testimony will be those that rejected salvation before the pretrib rapture. then, what happens to them is THEIR OWN FAULT, and certainly not the will of our Father.  Lamad

 

[Montana Marv]

Gee, do I really want to get into all of this now, sort of lost the mood, lol.

 

For now just one thing since it is easy:

 

 

Another HUGE Problem: the bible is clear that the Antichrist will OVERCOME and prevail over the saints. Do posttribbers disagree with God here, and somehow think they will survive?

 

Post-tribbers believe everything God says, that is why they take the position that they do.

 

Matt 14:22 - Young's Literal Translation:

 

And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.

 

Not that it really matters, if the antichrist wipes a believer out, he / she is better off, so who cares anyway, it is a not issue.

 

I fail to see a huge problem, or any problem what-so-ever, what am I missing?

 

Rev 13:7 -  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conqueror them. v 10 - If anyone is to go into capitivity, into captivity he will go, If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with a sword he will be killed.  This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on part of the saints.

 

So am I seeing that the Bride of Christ is conquered by the A/C.  If this is the case, one may never see it to the 2nd Coming as many suggest that they will be there alive at the 2nd Coming to be Raptured.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[John S]

Iamlamad

1. Are you familiar at all with history? When have people escaped martrydom for believing in Jesus Christ? He didn't even escape death .Apparently, Pre-Tribbers believe that the Father considers them to be more "special" than His own son.

2. God hasn't promised you anything. It is the incorrect interpretation that has allowed you to come up with this notion that God PROMISED you escape. This notion might very well lead to the Pre-Tribbers spiritual demise after the arrival of the antichrist.

 

Jesus DID say that many will be deceived.

[angels4u]

 

I still can't find any place where those "taken" are not the wicked.

""The meek shall inherit the earth""

.

Anyone who opposes the rapture myth is a hero in my book.

And speaking of books, the reason the whole concoction was invented in the first place was to sell books, not to distribute an accurate and truthful interpretation of end times prophecy. It was John Nelson Darby who started this fantasy. You can't blame this one on Mr. Disney! Darby was a man who hung around with dabblers in the occult at one time. His association led him to propose the rapture theory.

Like all good fiction and lies, the rapture story was based upon the solid ground of scripture. In this case the solid ground is that Jesus promised He would come again. For millennia Christians have anticipated the second coming. I know I do.

Darby comes along and throws a book out there which is instantly popular. Ever noticed how demonic books have that strange sort of intellectual magnetism? If we examine all the rapture theories dispassionately we see that the theoretical consequences are that Jesus would come again...and again....and again. Three or four times or more are the number of 'returns' depending upon which version of the tale one chooses to espouse.

Add to that its a cultural thing. Only in America. A few years ago a conclave of South African protestant churches voted to reject the rapture idea completely. It's devisive, it isn't based upon sound logic and it isn't efficacious in the least. Only in America. If it's true why doesn't anybody else buy it? Because it's rubbish, that's why and everyone knows it except Americans. Do Americans have an exclusive license on the truth - or are we just really good at marketing garbage?

But the rapture theory does sell a lot of books - and that's probably the biggest single benefit to the category of Christian literary fiction.

It makes money and lots of it.

"There's a sucker born every minute."

- P.T. Barnum

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Who's your hero?

[Montana Marv]

Matt 25:6-13 --- At midnight the cry rang out; Here is the Bridegroom.  Come out and meet him.  Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.  The foolish ones said to the wise, give us some of your oil, our lamps are going out.  No, they replied, there may not be enough for both us and you.  Instead go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.  But while they were on their way to buy oil, the Bridegroom arrived.  The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet.  And the door was shut.

 

John 14:2,3 - In My Fathers house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you, I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go  and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

At the Second Coming Christ returns to earth and rules with a rod of iron for 1000 years.

 

For those who do not not believe in the Rapture, my guess is that you will never be in the Fathers House where Christ now is.  So He did not go there to prepare a place for you as Scripture says.  Like the five unwise virgins, depart from me I do not know you.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

Matt 25:6-13 --- At midnight the cry rang out; Here is the Bridegroom.  Come out and meet him.  Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.  The foolish ones said to the wise, give us some of your oil, our lamps are going out.  No, they replied, there may not be enough for both us and you.  Instead go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.  But while they were on their way to buy oil, the Bridegroom arrived.  The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet.  And the door was shut.

 

John 14:2,3 - In My Fathers house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you, I am going there to prepare a place for you.  And if I go  and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you may be where I am.  You know the way to the place where I am going.

 

At the Second Coming Christ returns to earth and rules with a rod of iron for 1000 years.

 

For those who do not not believe in the Rapture, my guess is that you will never be in the Fathers House where Christ now is.  So He did not go there to prepare a place for you as Scripture says.  Like the five unwise virgins, depart from me I do not know you.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I am a pretrib rapture believer and I do not believe that you have to believe in the rapture in order to go to heaven.

[Montana Marv]

bopeep

 

Correct, not believing in the Rapture does not prohibit from one going to heaven;

 

But the quote from someone above somewhat irks me:

 

Like all good fiction and lies, the rapture story was based upon the solid ground of scripture. In this case the solid ground is that Jesus promised He would come again. For millennia Christians have anticipated the second coming. I know I do.

 

And:

 

Add to that its a cultural thing. Only in America. A few years ago a conclave of South African protestant churches voted to reject the rapture idea completely. It's devisive, it isn't based upon sound logic and it isn't efficacious in the least. Only in America. If it's true why doesn't anybody else buy it? Because it's rubbish, that's why and everyone knows it except Americans. Do Americans have an exclusive license on the truth - or are we just really good at marketing garbage?

 

So now one must ask a question; 
Did some in Pauls day think they had missed something (2 Thes 2:1-3).  What did they think they missed?  Not the Second Coming v1, because Christ was not ruling, so it had to be about the Rapture of the Bride (our being gathered to him) v1.

 

So do we who believe in the Rapure;  Are we believing a Lie, is it Rubbish, is it not upon sound logic.    Have we been decieved by Paul and others.  Is the parable of the ten virgins a true-ism or a false-ism.  Is the Bridegroom really coming?  If No, then Jesus did not go to heaven to prepare a place for us, and Jesus will not gather us (Church/Bride) to be with Him in His Fathers house, there is no wedding.  We may rule with Him 1000 years on earth.  But somewhere the Bride missed out on heaven and the Fathers House.  So we get lumped with all other OT saints and believing Israel who were not filled with the HS and live with them in the New Heaven, Earth and Jerusalem.  Rev 22:17 - the Spirit and the Bride say come. 

 

Sorry for the long dialog.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

 

 

 

The pretrib view shows the true character of God - that NO FATHER would purposely send His children into great tribulation - especially  when He has promised them a way of escape, and set no appointment with them for His wrath. What kind of character does the post trib view show of God?  Is our Father God is SO MUCH better than earthly fathers.

 

It is not that some or a few believers will be wiped out, it is that ALL of them will be wiped out. Why would a loving God choose such a method to bring His children into heaven, through beheading, when He has promised to come and get us and take us to His heavenly home?  No, God would not do that. The ONLY people that will forced to face beheading for their testimony will be those that rejected salvation before the pretrib rapture. then, what happens to them is THEIR OWN FAULT, and certainly not the will of our Father.  Lamad

 

I have always found the character of God argument to be an interesting one, that somehow, in spite of all the persecutions to death from the prophets to modern day Christians, that somehow in the end times, Gods character will not allow the suffering of His people as He always has in the past.

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

Rev 13:7 -  He was given power to make war against the saints and to conqueror them. v 10 - If anyone is to go into capitivity, into captivity he will go, If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with a sword he will be killed.  This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on part of the saints.

 

So am I seeing that the Bride of Christ is conquered by the A/C.  If this is the case, one may never see it to the 2nd Coming as many suggest that they will be there alive at the 2nd Coming to be Raptured.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Why can't some die during the trib, and be resurrected to be with Jesus, while others who survive until His appearing, follow them and so forever be with the Lord?

 

1 Thess 4 13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.