What do you really know about how to defend your faith?

[Guest shiloh357]

That is nonsense. Jesus said we are not to throw our pearls before swine. My time is better spent on those who want to know the truth. I am not going to waste time on someone who takes entertainment value from seeing me search high and low, work and spend hours pulling together research and information only for them to laugh it off. I have developed the ability to know who is worth the effort and who isn't. I am all for helping people, but I am not going to be played for a fool.

"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

(Mat 10:16)

Sorry to step into this conversation, but might I offer this passage for reflection?

When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.

(1 Cor 4:12-16)

I'm not saying there isn't a time to wipe dust from our feet. I would ask however; what measure do we use to define that time?

Yes, but I did not say that I don't pray for mockers, nor did I say anything that I dissociate myself from them, nor cease reaching out to them. What I said was that I am not going to waste my time on questions that are not being asked out of a desire to know the truth. I am not going to play the fool for someone who isn't interested in the truth, and who's only motive is to make a fool of me. There is no wisdom in letting them bring a reproach upon Christ and upon the Gospel by letting yourself be played for a fool. I can stil reach out to those who are hostile to the truth without letting them set the terms of our dialogue. When they come to the place where they are finally serious and they can no longer get any satisfaction from their mockery and the hostility can be penetrated with truth, then it is profitible use of my time and resources.

As for the passage above that you cite, that applies to an entirely different issue. Paul is talking about enduring persecution, slander and so forth, for simply preaching the gospel and bearing the Name of Christ to the ends of the earth. That is not what this topic is about.

In sharing the Gospel, there is some wisdom that needs to be applied in order to be effective. The Bible places a very high premium on practicing Godly wisdom and discernment. We are advised not to be foolish, but to be sober minded and wise. It is one thing to be considered foolish for your faith. It is quite another to play the fool and invite persecution and to allow others to heap reproach upon the Lord.

[MrClark]

Shiloh - I added the word tricky myself, I was merely paraphrasing. If I had been quoting you directly I would have used full quotations marks " " or the quote box. For those skeptics who seem overly-emphatic about definitive proof of God's existence, I usually just ask them for definitive proof of God's non-existence. As for the rest of your post - I understand what you are saying. As for myself, I think I am not as good at judging other people's motivations as you. I would rather waste hours of my time on many and be thought a fool to save one from damnation than not waste my time at all. But to each his own.

Dragoon - Hello! You made some very interesting points, and I liked the passage you provided. Corinthians is full of enlightening messages. I hope to see you on the worthy boards in the future!

Cheers~

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh - I added the word tricky myself, I was merely paraphrasing.

Yeah you added a word that changed the meaning of my words entirely. You put words into my mouth and assigned a value to me that I did not intend. That is not "paraphrasing." It's called misrepresentation.

For those skeptics who seem overly-emphatic about definitive proof of God's existence, I usually just ask them for definitive proof of God's non-existence.

That is an irrational question because no one can prove a negative. Besides, like I said, I never use the word proof. I have no problem answering tough questions. I ususally respond that our faith can be demonstrated to be rational, evidentiary and is not based on blind faith. I can offer quality evidence. I never ask for proof, and I never claim to have proof.

As for myself, I think I am not as good at judging other people's motivations as you.

Well, I have been at this a long time, and it is easy to tell when someone is serious and when they simply want to lead you down the path and make a fool of you.

I would rather waste hours of my time on many and be thought a fool ...

I have no problem being thought a fool for my faith. I have been called worse, actually. I simply refuse to be played for a fool due to my own unwise decisions and by entertaining those who are simply playing games. They can be reached, but they will not be reached by me letting them control the dialogue and getting me bogged down in empty, pointless questions. I can handle the tough questions and I can handle the hostility. I will not be played, though.

It does not reach one person when we allow ourselves to be led down the path by those whose only motive is to play us for fools and to bring a reproach upon the Gospel. It is one thing to suffer reproach for our faith. It is another thing to bring reproach upon ourselves and upon the Lord because of our own responsible and unwise decisions.

[Dragoon]

That is nonsense. Jesus said we are not to throw our pearls before swine. My time is better spent on those who want to know the truth. I am not going to waste time on someone who takes entertainment value from seeing me search high and low, work and spend hours pulling together research and information only for them to laugh it off. I have developed the ability to know who is worth the effort and who isn't. I am all for helping people, but I am not going to be played for a fool.

"Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

(Mat 10:16)

Sorry to step into this conversation, but might I offer this passage for reflection?

When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.

(1 Cor 4:12-16)

I'm not saying there isn't a time to wipe dust from our feet. I would ask however; what measure do we use to define that time?

Yes, but I did not say that I don't pray for mockers, nor did I say anything that I dissociate myself from them, nor cease reaching out to them. What I said was that I am not going to waste my time on questions that are not being asked out of a desire to know the truth. I am not going to play the fool for someone who isn't interested in the truth, and who's only motive is to make a fool of me. There is no wisdom in letting them bring a reproach upon Christ and upon the Gospel by letting yourself be played for a fool. I can stil reach out to those who are hostile to the truth without letting them set the terms of our dialogue. When they come to the place where they are finally serious and they can no longer get any satisfaction from their mockery and the hostility can be penetrated with truth, then it is profitible use of my time and resources.

As for the passage above that you cite, that applies to an entirely different issue. Paul is talking about enduring persecution, slander and so forth, for simply preaching the gospel and bearing the Name of Christ to the ends of the earth. That is not what this topic is about.

In sharing the Gospel, there is some wisdom that needs to be applied in order to be effective. The Bible places a very high premium on practicing Godly wisdom and discernment. We are advised not to be foolish, but to be sober minded and wise. It is one thing to be considered foolish for your faith. It is quite another to play the fool and invite persecution and to allow others to heap reproach upon the Lord.

Hi Shiloh,

My question was actually what measure do we use to define when the time comes to wipe the dust from our feet.

Might I also ask how you discern 'playing the fool' vs being 'foolish for your faith'? One of the things that is always in the back of my mind is clear discernment on when I am worried about my own reputation and looking foolish in front of people, and when I am truly discerning that the Spirit is telling me that the time has come to be silent. I'd be interested to hear the measures you use for comparison.

Might I also mention that you say 1 Corinthians 4:12-16 is about 'simply preaching the gospel and bearing the Name of Christ to the ends of the earth' and that this thus applies to an 'entirely different issue'. How do you see that as being different than what is being discussed?

Good work on the "The Bible: How We Got It, and Why We can Trust It." thread by the way.

Looking forward to your responses.

-----------

MrClark,

Nice to meet you too sir.

[Guest shiloh357]

My question was actually what measure do we use to define when the time comes to wipe the dust from our feet.

That was an instruction Jesus gave to His disciples if the cities of Israel did not receive their message. I don't really give up on anyone. They may or may not be prepared for a heart-to-heart discussion on spiritual matters, but I still pray for them and allow the Lord to prepare their hearts and to open up opportunities.

Might I also ask how you discern 'playing the fool' vs being 'foolish for your faith'?

It is one thing to present the truth in love and to be laughed at because they think you're crazy for believing the Gospel. Being played for a fool respresents a lack of discernment on the part of the person presenting the Gospel. Allowing yourself to be dragged into foolish questions and debates over nonsense.

One of the things that is always in the back of my mind is clear discernment on when I am worried about my own reputation and looking foolish in front of people, and when I am truly discerning that the Spirit is telling me that the time has come to be silent. I'd be interested to hear the measures you use for comparison.

There is no quantifiable measurement for that. I am careful about what conversations I allow myself to get into. I ususally am able, through my own questions, able to see if a person is motivated by a sincere desire to find the truth, or if they just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I encounter unbelievers who think they have the silver bullet that will be the deathknell to Christianity. I don't entertain their questions when that is their attitude. Instead, I turn it around on them and begin asking them questions about their life and their experiences with Christianity to get at the heart of the problem and find the real root of their bitterness.

Might I also mention that you say 1 Corinthians 4:12-16 is about 'simply preaching the gospel and bearing the Name of Christ to the ends of the earth' and that this thus applies to an 'entirely different issue'. How do you see that as being different than what is being discussed?

Becauase we are talking about apologetics, which is totall different than the issue of this passage.

In that passage, Paul is dealing with the issue of false teachers who were challenging Paul's authority as a true apostle (an issue he deals with at length in II Corinthians). Paul is drawing a distinction between himself and them by recounting the self-denials and hardships he has faced for the preaching of the gospel. Paul's point is that the false teachers have no grounds for their boasting. Paul sees his hardships as evidence of his true calling as an apostle.

Good work on the "The Bible: How We Got It, and Why We can Trust It." thread by the way.

thanks, glad you like it.