hell is for the sin, not the sinner

[mizzdy]

"... what kind of works are we supposed to do?"

I wonder the same thing sometimes. At my church they talk about evangelism and missions all the time, next comes giving money. Seems to me God made us all different so we could use the talents and abilities we have in His service. I'm NOT talented at talking to people, hate travel, so would never make a great evangelist or missionary. But I can play musical instruments and do computer work for the church, so that's what I do. It doesn't seem very spiritually significant to keep a database, but it's useful, and who am I to judge?

So probably you will end up finding a way to serve that uses your skills in ways you enjoy. Most churches can use the most mundane skills, for instance my church is famous in our valley for great cooks, who help with fundraisers by making wonderful food, which supports evangelism and missions. So it's all good.

You are so right all things are important! I am disabled and unable to get out much by myself and for some years it weighed heavily on my heart how I could be a good servant for Him from home. Its not until I realized that keeping a FB page for my congregation, speaking daily with so many people, in so many ways leaving my words behind on forums such as this, are all ways of serving Him. We should never think we are not serving if we are striving daily to walk in His ways, when we say good morning to someone who may have had a hard night. I believe He puts us exactly where He wants us to be and doing what He wishes us to do be doing, just as long as we are listening and heeding His call.

shalom,

Mizz

[OneLight]

i just cant fathom that He would let anyone suffer for eternity after suffering in this life.

God gave us the ability to chose for ourselves. It is called free will. Without free will, we are no more then a robot, or a computer, programmed to obey. Do you believe a robot or computer knows what love is? God wants us to love Him. Love can not be forced. I have to want to love God for love to be love.

Because of our free will, it is not God who allows us to sin, it is us who chooses to sin. What God does allow is for us to make our own decisions. We are responsible for what we do. We either can remain in sin or ask for forgiveness and have our sin stains washed away by the blood of Christ. If we choose to remain in our sins, then we will be judged with them. We are given a "life time" to decide. IF we choose to reject Him in this life, we carry that decision into eternity. If we choose to accept Him, we take that decision into eternity also. It is our choice.

Remember what Jesus said about this life, it is like a vapor. That is very short and this is very serious.

[nebula]

The second thing is I would like to know why you believe it was God who put it in your heart that salvation comes through works?

there is a phrase ive read in a couple of books, worded differently in both books, but it says something like this, "God takes the joy out of things or life in general for a time to make you understand what you were doing was so dangerous."

God had me believe that to get me out of my bad habits. at this season in my life He stopped me out of fear then let me slip back into them. after falling back into certain sins and seeing that God used if for good, in this season He is teaching me to do or not do things because of my love for Him, and it helped me understand His mercy and forgiveness.

What were these books? Do you remember?

[Gods_girl111]

i just cant fathom that He would let anyone suffer for eternity after suffering in this life.

God gave us the ability to chose for ourselves. It is called free will. Without free will, we are no more then a robot, or a computer, programmed to obey. Do you believe a robot or computer knows what love is? God wants us to love Him. Love can not be forced. I have to want to love God for love to be love.

Because of our free will, it is not God who allows us to sin, it is us who chooses to sin. What God does allow is for us to make our own decisions. We are responsible for what we do. We either can remain in sin or ask for forgiveness and have our sin stains washed away by the blood of Christ. If we choose to remain in our sins, then we will be judged with them. We are given a "life time" to decide. IF we choose to reject Him in this life, we carry that decision into eternity. If we choose to accept Him, we take that decision into eternity also. It is our choice.

Remember what Jesus said about this life, it is like a vapor. That is very short and this is very serious.

the bible also says that God uses our mistakes to teach us something and grow. yes He gave us free will, but satan has to ask God to tempt us before we are tempted and God only agrees because He knows He can use it for good.

[ayin jade]

Mankind is capable of sin without the devil leading us astray. Devil gets far too much credit I think, and man less of the responsibility for his own actions. (Women too, Im not excluding us.)

[Gods_girl111]

The second thing is I would like to know why you believe it was God who put it in your heart that salvation comes through works?

there is a phrase ive read in a couple of books, worded differently in both books, but it says something like this, "God takes the joy out of things or life in general for a time to make you understand what you were doing was so dangerous."

God had me believe that to get me out of my bad habits. at this season in my life He stopped me out of fear then let me slip back into them. after falling back into certain sins and seeing that God used if for good, in this season He is teaching me to do or not do things because of my love for Him, and it helped me understand His mercy and forgiveness.

What were these books? Do you remember?

ive been doing a lot of reading these last few months. i know one was by max ludcado and i think the book was "in the grip of grace" or "relentless love"and the other book was by joyce meyer and it was either "me and my big mouth" or "battlefield of the mind". but i could be wrong.

i had posted the quotes on my facebook, here is one of them, "Even though God wants us to live joyful, content lives, He sometimes causes a discontent or a feeling that something is not right because He does not want us to continue doing the same old things anymore. He want to prod us to seek Him to find out whats wrong because He wants to take us to new levels."

and the other, "It is an unspeakable mercy that the Father come with His chastisement, makes the world around us all dark and unattractive, leads us to feel more deeply our sinfulness, and for a time lose our joy in what was becoming so dangerous. He does it in the hope that, when we have found our rest in Christ in time of trouble, we shall choose abiding in Him as our only portion"

[Gods_girl111]

Mankind is capable of sin without the devil leading us astray. Devil gets far too much credit I think, and man less of the responsibility for his own actions. (Women too, Im not excluding us.)

but nothing happens without it passing through Gods hand first.

[OneLight]

i just cant fathom that He would let anyone suffer for eternity after suffering in this life.

God gave us the ability to chose for ourselves. It is called free will. Without free will, we are no more then a robot, or a computer, programmed to obey. Do you believe a robot or computer knows what love is? God wants us to love Him. Love can not be forced. I have to want to love God for love to be love.

Because of our free will, it is not God who allows us to sin, it is us who chooses to sin. What God does allow is for us to make our own decisions. We are responsible for what we do. We either can remain in sin or ask for forgiveness and have our sin stains washed away by the blood of Christ. If we choose to remain in our sins, then we will be judged with them. We are given a "life time" to decide. IF we choose to reject Him in this life, we carry that decision into eternity. If we choose to accept Him, we take that decision into eternity also. It is our choice.

Remember what Jesus said about this life, it is like a vapor. That is very short and this is very serious.

the bible also says that God uses our mistakes to teach us something and grow. yes He gave us free will, but satan has to ask God to tempt us before we are tempted and God only agrees because He knows He can use it for good.

If you are speaking of Job, Satan did not ask for permission.. Satan stated that Job was protected by God, that God had placed a hedge around Job, everything he had, and that is why he honors God so much. God took the challenge and removed the hedge and gave everything Job possessed into Satan's hands, but would not allow Satan to harm Job personally. After that didn't work, Satan said that why he did not curse God to His face was because nothing harmed him personally, so God told Satan that he could harm Job, but not take his life. Satan does not need Gods permission to tempt us at all.

Aside from that, yes, we learn from out trials, temptations and mistakes. I find that if I look in every situation, there is a lesson to learn. It does not have to be just in the hard times. This is the beauty of having a free will. We can choose to ignore these lessons and remain in ignorance, or we can choose to be more investigative and look for lessons that draw us closer to God. God allows things to happen so He can give us all the opportunity to know differences, experience everything and decide for ourselves which we want. He gives us all the time we need to make a decision. The ability to decide is the one of the greatest gifts He gave us.

Have you also considered what true love really is? We are given the basic parameters from 1 Corinthians 13.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

This is how God treats us, with a pureness of love that these words can not do justice to. Yet, if we look, we will find how we can love like this toward God and each other. This is why God can allow us to make even the wrongest decision anyone can ever make. It take this pure love for Him to allow us to reject Him and live eternity without Him. It is our choice, not His.

[Gods_girl111]

Have you also considered what true love really is? We are given the basic parameters from 1 Corinthians 13.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

This is how God treats us, with a pureness of love that these words can not do justice to. Yet, if we look, we will find how we can love like this toward God and each other. This is why God can allow us to make even the wrongest decision anyone can ever make. It take this pure love for Him to allow us to reject Him and live eternity without Him. It is our choice, not His.

[JohnD]

Getting your mind right and fixed on God (your personal subtitle, if you will) begins by investigating who and what and how God actually is... rather than imposing upon God what you believe should be and the way God should conduct himself. I understand you mean no harm in this action and in fact you are feeling compassion for all... God's love is far greater than yours or mine and his heart breaks in ways we cannot identify with as a result. But God must be true to himself and his righteousness or he would cease to be good. And if God is not good all is lost for everyone.

People deserve a second chance...

Christianity IS that second chance.

Those who reject this for whatever reason must be allowed to do so or it is not a choice and without the ability to choose no one can be saved...

John 3:16-18 (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is still a choice to believe... a choice to accept... just like it was a choice for humanity to fall into sin in the first place.

And for the argument about those who have not heard the Gospel... that's a fault in the mission field / witness of the Christians who live on Earth (i.e. us).

in my understanding, no spirit goes to hell, only the sin or evilness that lives in us.

if God created us for Him and is full of mercy and grace, i cannot fathom that He would send anyone of us to hell. especially if He controls everything and could make all unbelievers believe.

i know that repentance is part of believing in God, but who can say they have repented of all sin to be worthy to stand before God. if someone claims to know God and still sins can get into Heaven, then someone who sins without knowing its sin shouldnt have to go to hell.

my uncle has a hard time understanding heaven and hell. he gave me this example.. if there were two people standing before God on judgment day, one a little old lady who did not believe in God, the other a middle aged man who did believe in God, the man would get into Heaven and the old lady would go to hell. the man, who was a drug addict, spent half of his life in prison for raping numerous women and killing numerous people, and although he claimed to know Christ, He was just as bad in prison. and the little old lady spent her life volunteering in the community, being kind to everyone she met, fed the homeless, and never touched a cigarette or any drug in her life.

why on earth would this man get into heaven and this lady not, just because he says he believes in God? he did not portray Christ in any fashion, and this lady was almost the spitting image of Christ.

i know we dont get into Heaven by works but by faith. but for me, i didnt believe in God until 2 and half years ago, and still wouldnt had He not revealed Himself to me. i know for a fact that He tried revealing Himself to me numerous time before i started believing, but i didnt recognize Him. the man in my example either said he believed in God just so he could go to Heaven, or God revealed Himself to him. but for this little old lady theres no reason she shouldnt believe in God other than He didnt reveal Himself to her in a way that she would have known it was Him.

ive heard that God knows everyones heart, despite their words on confessing whether or not they are believers.. with that thought, our heart and spirit come from Him and are created in His image. so why would anyone go to hell?

now just because i believe we all go to Heaven doesnt mean i think we should all go about our days living in sin. for us who do believe, i think we need to set an example for the unbelievers. first and foremost an example of love, secondly an example with our actions. we could go about our days not gossiping, doing drugs, getting drunk, sleeping around, etc. but an unbeliever would probably say that we're just missing out on a lot of fun. i think our most important goal in this life is to spread Gods love so that others can see God in us and come to know Him and live this miserable life loved, knowing peace and having a relationship with God and know that something better is waiting for us.

Edited June 17, 2011 by JohnDB