Ro 11:20-21

[Guest shiloh357]

I think that is a very good analysis of those points and I don't disagree with any of them.

However you can't be serious that the apex or point of the book of Romans is how gentiles should treat Jews?

No, I am not serious about that; because that is not what I said. What I said was that the book of Romans was written as an appeal to the Gentile believers to be a blessing to Israel. What I said was that Paul was asking them to "return the favor" so to speak. The Gentiles have been blessed through Israel and now they should reciprocate by being a blessing to Israel.

The first eight chapters of Romans deal primarily with the "mystery" of Gentile salvation. In the first century, Gentile salvation was not all that well understood. Salvation had always been in a Jewish context and how uncircumcised Gentiles qualified to enter the Kingdom of God. Today, we have stood that issue on its head and now Christians are perplexed at the notion that Jews can believe in Jesus and still remain "Jewish."

In those first eight chapters, Paul considers the relationship of the individual, both Jew and Gentile with relation the Gospel. He outlines just how it is possible and reasonable for Gentiles to have access to God's grace. In chapters 9, 10, and 11 he shifts his focus to the Church and Israel as corporate units. More specifically, his focus is on the corporate body of Gentile believers and their relation to the corporate people of Israel.

Chapters 1-8 were the lead up to his appeal, which is the really the focal point of the letter. This is the apex, the main issue on Paul's heart. He even says so. Jews coming to the Lord was his heart's desire (Rom. 10:1). Even after his ministry turned to the Gentiles, he still continued to visit the synagogues and present the gospel to the Jews.

Paul's contention is that the Gospel is to the Jew first, and then the Gentile (Rom. 1:16). Paul, in chapter 11, even makes a typical "light-to-heavy rabbinical argument.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

(Rom 11:15)

This is a different phrase in Greek than in verse one. God has not cast them off. What this refers to is that because many of them have rejected the Messiah, they are unable to experience the Lord's favor. They are not cast off entirely, but they are "cast off" or rejected in terms of their ability to be in fellowship with God. Verse one uses the phrase "cast off" to mean rejection in the fullest and most final sense and that is not what Paul is talking about in verse 15.

His light to-heavy-argument simply states that if their being cut off temporarily from the favor of God has brought salvation to the world, what greater blessing is store for the world when they embrace the Messiah and are received back into His favor? It will be like a resurrection from the dead!!

The conclusion of it all is, "And so all Israel shall be saved." That is THE point. The restoration of Israel. But Paul believes that Gentiles have a part to play in that restoration AND as far as he is concerned they owe it to Israel to be that light and blessing and they owe it to them to make them jealous for the divine favor that their Gentile counterparts are experiencing. The Gentiles should want the Jewish people to have what they have; to experience the same blessings and benefits that they have in Christ.

[eph215]

I've quoted many passages that simply state flat out that the gift is eternal life by grace, through faith, not by works.

That's just what it says.

You have stated your fallible interpretation. Your interpretation directly contradicts the gospel message, though.

Your view requires that you reject or ignore most of the new testament passages on salvation. I accept all of the new testament as true, including the verses below which you must reject:

Matt 7:21

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 2

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

James 2

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

1 Peter 1

17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Rev 20

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

John 15:10

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1 John 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

etc.

These verses are all well and good but require some clarification otherwise we're all looking them in a different context:

Matt 7:21 - what is will the Father in heaven? How do we know we've done it?

Romans 2 - what good do we have to do? How much? How often?

Gal 6 - in light of Romans 7 how are any of us 'wretched men (or women)' to satisfy this? How much sowing to either side is enough? Notice a theme here? Now I have live in the constant fear of wondering if I've done enough to 'earn' my salvation. What if I spend the rest of my life sowing to please the Spirit (fat chance of that - back to Romans 7 again) and then sow to the flesh (an unforgiving thought, a lustful look etc) am I damned?

James 2 - faith without deed is indeed dead but is James challenging is to walk what we talk, put some skin in the game etc. or is he challenging where we will spend eternity? I would say the former not the latter.

1 Peter 1 - again, is this referring specifically to salvation? In context (reading the whole chapter, not just verse 17) I see this as a call to holiness, like James above a challenge to really walk in faith and show it to everyone, not as a warning to beware lest you lose your salvation.

Rev 20 - there are books and there are books. Rev 20:15 says:

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So the other books must be for those not saved, not in the book of life. They will be judged by what they have done, not the saved.

Matt 16:27 - again this doesn't specifically address salvation but, like Rev 20, to the idea that judgement awaits those not saved. Verse 26 addresses salvation and then 27 describes what awaits those not saved.

John 15:10 - what does it mean to 'remain in his love'? Paul says nothing can separate us from God's love. The context is referring to joy. If we do these things then 'our joy will be complete'. I don't see this as addressing salvation.

1 John 2:3 - again, what does this have to do specifically with salvation?

1 John 2:6 - Back to Romans 7; how do we know when we've done enough? How literally do we take this? What does it mean to walk as Jesus did and how do I know I'm doing it?

[Shiloh62]

There is no limit to God's plan of salvation-all are invited to believe in Him. However, if we don't, then we will ultimatley be separated from Him as the branches of the tree.

[Guest shiloh357]

The bible is full of instructions for our behavior and the consequences of disobedience. Your interpretations are very subjective and are designed to support your preconceptions. I don't think an objective reader of the New Testament would believe in salvation by faith alone.

Actually the Bible says we are saved by grace. We are justified by faith alone.

The problem is that you string a bunch of verses together as if they are all addressing the same issue, and they are not. You put as "salvation" verses, those verses that are not talking about salvation at all. There are consequences for diobedience, but those consequences are experienced in this life, most of the time. Sin has its own built-in consequences.

I once did, but my mind has been changed through prayer and study.

That is not true. The RCC places bible study on the lowest rung when it comes to their approach to theology. You rely MORE on the teachings of the Magisterium and on what you call "sacred tradition." Those are your primary sources of theological understanding. You rely on teachings and traditions that were created long after the Bible was written and then you interpret those traditions and teachings retroactively into the Scriptures.

Every Catholic I have ever discussed the Bible with is very sloppy when it comes to exegesis. That is because they don't exegete Scripture. They rely on Eisogesis, reading their Catholicism backwards into the text and trying to mold the Bible around a theological/religious system that did not exist for the first 400 years after Christ.

According to scripture we must strive for holiness.

That is not eactly accurate. What the Bible says is that we must strive to live holy lives. That is different than striving for holiness. The holiness that God desires cannot be achieved by human effort. The holiness He demands, He also provides (Heb. 2:10, 10:10, 10:14: Jude 1:1). We are commanded to live lives of holiness that correspond with adn emulate the holiness He has already provided (I Pet. 1:15-16).

We are to be holy because He is holy. We are not striving to be holy in order to qualify for salvation. It is the sanctification that He has worked in us that is behind the commandment to be holy in all that we do and say.

Thanks to his grace we are capable of pleasing him.

No, more accurately, it is Christ pleasing God on our behalf. He lives within us in the person of Holy Spirit and fulfils the righteousness of the law in us (Rom. 8:4). In addition, it is His righteousness imputed to us that pleases God and puts us in rightstanding. It is nothing we have done that is pleasing to Him.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

The bible is full of instructions for our behavior and the consequences of disobedience.

Yes, and that in no way automatically establishes your point.

Your interpretations are very subjective and are designed to support your preconceptions.

And yet you continue to ignore my challenge for you to demonstrate that this is so.

It's simply silly to suggest that what I'm presenting is my interpretation since I can present the verses as they're written, free from any of my own thoughts or feelings and they still say just what I asserted all on their own:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the gift of God is eternal life?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Romans 5:15).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the gift is by grace?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say by grace we are saved, that is the gift of God, and that it is through faith, not by works?

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:5-6).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the election is by grace, not by works, and if by works then it is no more grace?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness?

If any of these things are not so, walk us through them in their contexts, but I submit that these things objectively state the contrary to what you assert, wholly apart from my rational or input.

I don't think an objective reader of the New Testament would believe in salvation by faith alone.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, tell us the objective reading of this passage please.

I once did, but my mind has been changed through prayer and study.

Great, then you won’t mind sharing your depth of understanding with us for our edification.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the gift of God is eternal life?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many" (Romans 5:15).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the gift is by grace?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say by grace we are saved, that is the gift of God, and that it is through faith, not by works?

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work" (Romans 11:5-6).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say the election is by grace, not by works, and if by works then it is no more grace?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5).

I put it to you, does that or does it not say to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness?

If any of these things are not so, walk us through them in their contexts, but I submit that these things objectively state the contrary to what you assert, wholly apart from my rational or input.

According to scripture we must strive for holiness. God knows whether we are striving for holiness. There is no scorebook available to us, but he is watching. We will reap what we sow.

You’ve repeatedly rejected our assessments because you wrote them off as simply flawed interpretations, so you’ve set the standard there and therefore your flawed interpretation has just as little meaning.

Please address the passages that I’ve submitted to demonstrate your assertion, instead of simply ignoring the passages and asserting the contrary to what they state.

Thanks to his grace we are capable of pleasing him.

Paul tells us how:

Romans 12

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

No where in there does it mention salvation.

And what does it mean to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, not conforming to the pattern of the world but being renewed in mind? Does that mean a works based salvation to please God, as you imply?

No.

We see in Galatians that in being born “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Remember, “... to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5), because “Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation” (Col. 1:21-22)

The above passage does absolutely nothing to establish your point, and when harmonized with the rest of scripture severely damages your point.

Once again, you’re refusing to deal with the passages I’m submitting, making untenable assertions by ripping verses out of their context and arbitrarily assigning them connotations which they do not possess, neither in their original context nor even when you remove them from their context. You’re simply asserting that your point is made by the verse, even though it simply isn’t the case… and you know it too, otherwise you’d at least try to address the passages I’ve presented.

So please, can you either deign to respond to the passages we’re presenting or desist with your unsubstantiated Catholic assertions and get back to the topic at hand? - please and thank you.

[Smalcald]

I think it comes down to what some call faith.

Indeed faith without works as James said is dead, but if something is dead it does not exist anymore. So as we strive for holiness we are walking in faith. The warnings about the consequences of sin are real, but our actions are one way to know who we already are; to really test our faith. As Merton points out, "Your life is shaped by the end you live for. You are made in the image of what you desire".

If our mind is carnal; we are living in death regardless of what kind of faith we may claim to have.

[Guest shiloh357]

1) Actually the Bible says we are saved by grace. We are justified by faith alone.

We are saved by grace through faith and works of obedience.

James 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

This illustrates what I said earlier about about Catholics and exegesis. Even a cursory reading of James chapter two will reveal that James is talking about our works justifying our faith. It is not us being justified, but our faith, or to be more accurate our testimony of faith. Our works justify or "affirm" our faith in the sight of men. We are justified by faith only in the sight of God.

2) That is not true. The RCC places bible study on the lowest rung when it comes to their approach to the Bible. You rely MORE on the teachings of the Magisterium and on what you call "sacred tradition."

The bible is part of sacred Tradition. You only know which books belong in the New Testament because of Catholic Tradition. For 2000 years Catholics have spent their entire lives studying scripture and tradition. Catholics believe the bible is the word of God. You rely on your own fallible interpretation of scripture, which is no more reliable than the next guy. Catholics rely on the promises of Jesus and the guidance of the Holy Spirit over 2000 years of their consistent and faithful journey.

Yeah, whatever. Your inability to do simple exegesis makes its own point. The fact is, you are not the first Catholic I have dealt with and all of them without exception place far more stock in tradition and the teachings of men than they do the Scripture and you are no different.

3) We are to be holy because He is holy. We are not striving to be holy in order to qualify for salvation. It is the sanctification that He has worked in us that is behind the commandment to be holy in all that we do and say.

That's not what the bible says:

Yes it does (Heb. 2:10, 10:10, 10:14: Jude 1:1). In each of those Scriptures it refers to God as our sanctifier, the one who makes us holy.

The point in Hebrews 12:14 is that the unrepentant and unpardoned will not see God. The holiness that God requires cannot be achieved by human effort. God's holiness is the attribute of His character and thus completely out of human reach. He is the one who sanctified and makes holy.

1 Cor. 9:27 is about being disqualified for service. Paul wants to win the prize. Salvation is not a prize; salvation is a gift. It cannot be earned. It is a free gift of God's grace if you bother to read the context, Paul is talking about preaching the gospel and that he disciplines himself so that after preaching to others he does not end up being disqualified for service.

Romans 8:13 is not about how holiness is achieved. It is about putting to death the deeds of the flesh through the power of the Holy Spirit.

II Corinthians was written by Paul to defend his apostleship. The church had been infiltrated by false apostles who challenged not only Paul's authority as an apostle, but also called his salvation in to question, as well. The Corinthians had to some degree been led astray and in II Corinthians 13:5, Paul is challenging them to examine themselves to see if THEY were truly believers. He was essentially turning the argument around on them.

I Tim 6:12 is an exhortation to Timothy to perservere and to stay strong. It has nothing to do with achieving holiness.

Phil. 3:12 needs to be read in the light of the verses that follow:

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (Php 3:12-14)

This is not about achieving holiness. It is Paul's remarks concerning his perserverance in ministry. He is running race to achieve a reward (not salvation). The prize is the end result of his calling as preacher of the Gospel.

You are really misreading Romans 8:17. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

The conditional clause, "if so be" is a first class conditional clause and it simply assumes that action is true for the sake of argument. In other words, it reads:

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we (as is the present case with you) suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Paul's conditional clause is simply an affirmation of what he knows is true about his hearers. He is not saying that suffering persecution is a condition for salvation.

Again, you need to do a bit better exegesis and stop relying on the tired method of just string a bunch of verse together like lights on a Christmas tree.

[Guest]

No Brag

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

Just Jesus

____________

Romans 12

I Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

This Is Your Reasonable Service

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:1-3

And Your Act of Worship

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me?

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

And It Is Just Step

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:9-10

By Step

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

Walking With Jesus

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Rejoicing In The Salvation Of Our LORD, Our God, Our Savior

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. Luke 10:20

However The Churches Especially The Older And The Only "True" Churches Really Need To Take Heed

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write, 'These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:

"I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." ' Revelation 2:12-17 (NKJV)

The LORD Never Slumbers

Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. Psalms 121:4

[Guest shiloh357]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

I think some try to separate chapters 8,9 from the rest of Romans in their defense of Calvinism, and I believe that your point exposes the error in this method.

I agree that Paul's message here is about the universal application of the gospel to all people.

That is not what I said. I said that it is an appeal by Paul to the Gentile believers to be a blessing to Israel (the natural descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and to be a light for the Gospel to them.

[Guest shiloh357]

It never ceases to amaze me how people make such a straightforward appeal by Paul into a such a difficult and confusing topic. This is so simple, people have needed help to misunderstand it.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 comprise an appeal by Paul to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. Namely, Paul's appeal was for the Gentiles to bring the Gospel to the Jewish people because the salvation and the blessings and favor the Gentiles are now enjoying came at a great price on Israel's part. In chapter 11, Paul's point is that instead of becoming arrogant and assuming that the Jews had been cast off in deference to the Gentiles, they were to, in humility, be a light and blessing to Israel. The Gentiles were enjoying the blessings and benefits of the covenants given to Israel and this was meant to make the Jewish people jealous and desirous of those same blessings.

People come to this chapter not reading the contexst, not letting Paul speak for himself and trying read all kinds of things into the passage that have absolutely nothing to do with the context. This is not about losing salvation or anything like that. It is about being a blessing to Israel. Romans 9,10 and 11 are the main focal point of the book.

I think some try to separate chapters 8,9 from the rest of Romans in their defense of Calvinism, and I believe that your point exposes the error in this method.

I agree that Paul's message here is about the universal application of the gospel to all people.

That is not what I said. I said that it is an appeal by Paul to the Gentile believers to be a blessing to Israel (the natural descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and to be a light for the Gospel to them.

I don't agree that this is Paul's primary point.

I think Paul's point is the universality of the gospel.

The universality of the Gospel is a given; it is a foregone conclusion. Paul wrote the book of Romans though, to appeal to the Gentiles to be a blessing to Israel. It is evident in now he shifts focus starting at chapter nine. If Paul's point was the universality of the Gospel, he would not have spent three chapters appealing to the Gentiles on behalf of Israel.