Ro 11:20-21

[JohnD]

My question is why in a later verse in the same chapter did he call the saved "All Israel." ???

[Guest yod]

My question is why in a later verse in the same chapter did he call the saved "All Israel." ???

That's what you see if you subscribe to the 2-house nonsense, but that isn't necessarily what he's saying.

Riddle me this, batman: When Yeshua says that He came "only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel" does that include the jews?

There are so many holes in the 2-house concept, that it's just hard to have a conversation based on reality with the psuedo-ephramites. Why can't the jewish people have the promises given specifically to them without someone else trying to make it apply to themselves?

[~candice~]

My question is why in a later verse in the same chapter did he call the saved "All Israel." ???

That's what you see if you subscribe to the 2-house nonsense, but that isn't necessarily what he's saying.

Riddle me this, batman: When Yeshua says that He came "only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel" does that include the jews?

There are so many holes in the 2-house concept, that it's just hard to have a conversation based on reality with the psuedo-ephramites. Why can't the jewish people have the promises given specifically to them without someone else trying to make it apply to themselves?

Selfishness, self centeredness? We want everything to be about ME. Me me me me me.

[Guest shiloh357]

My question is why in a later verse in the same chapter did he call the saved "All Israel." ???

That is not what he said. He said "And so all Israel will be saved." He did not say, "And all of the saved are Israel."

Furthermore, because he is speaking of corporate Israel, the word "saved" does not merely refer to salvation from sin. He is also talking about the corporate restoration Israel.

[Guest yod]

My question is why in a later verse in the same chapter did he call the saved "All Israel." ???

Let take a look at every place "Israel" is mentioned in Romans 11 to see if He does indeed call the saved "all Israel"

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

What? Someone from Judah who calls himself an Israelite??? Hmm...that isn't what 2-house teachers (aka hebrew roots network, Messianic Israel Alliance, etc) say. If someone is from Benjamin, they are House of Judah, not an Israelite. Of course that contradicts what the scriptures say, but let us not allow the truth to get in the way...

Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”?

hmmm...did the 2-house people kill the prophets? I wasn't aware that Elijah had appealed to God against them for trying to kill him?

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain.

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,

eyes that could not see

and ears that could not hear,

to this very day.”

OK...I'll allow for the possibility that this one might be referring to the 2-house people since that does describe what a conversation with them is like....

Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Oh this one is going to cause real problems for the 2-house folks. Gentiles can ONLY mean "heathen" according to them. Not a saved person at all, according to their teachers. So, using the 2-house definitions of the words "Israel" and "Gentile", Paul is saying that the heathen are saved and that makes "Israel" envious because "Israel" is not.

And the last place this is mentioned in the chapter is here:

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27 And this is my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

so are you saying that the 2-house folks are experiencing a hardening???

Because, according to the context, "Israel" is being equated with "Jacob" here. And since it was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, it's hard to get around the fact that Jews/Jacob/Israel are all the same thing, and Paul is talking in this entire chapter to GENTILES about why "all Israel" is not yet saved.

So the premise of the 2-house teaching is corrupt and fallen. Israel means the Jews. Anyone who isn't Jewish, is a Gentile. Most people knew that already.

[Botz]

In the context of what is happening at this point in history in the development of the Gospel....Jews had preached the 'Good-News' to other Jews, many of them were responding and being 'saved'...then Peter got his revelation and went to Cornelius, followed by Paul and his convertion and eventual ministry where he had a pattern of going to every Synagogue he came across, preaching to the Jews, received by some, then rejected and abused, but in the meantime a groundswell of Gentiles were responding, and his ministry and method of planting congregations developed with the foundations rooted in Gentile Believers who formed the core of leadership.

Through this time it is apparent there is an ache in Pauls heart for his kinsmen ( Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ I lie not my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren my kinsmen according to the flesh), and he can see first hand some of the dangers and pitfalls developing through large groups of Gentile congregations emerging without a grounding in the roots of their faith, and becoming detatched from both the historical reality and the purpose and heart of G-d towards the Jewish people....so much so that in their wisdom/conceit they might believe the Jews are cursed, cut-off and discarded and voila...they the Gentiles have replaced them....especially when they are aware of how Paul has been treated at the hands of his own people.

In these days that we live in, something is changing in the Body of Messiah, divisions are becoming more defined, and one of the main sticking points in Gentile Believers understanding is what G-d is doing amongst the Jewish people....who have been, are and always will be, the 'apple of His eye'...and many amongst us have gone to great lengths, and with surgical skill to theologically eradicate the truth and thrust of Pauls deep concern so clearly expressed in these chapters of Romans.

I believe the 'breaking off' that is threatened to the Gentile Believers, has already been happening....like sections of ones body becoming necrosed and dead with no blood supply to sustain it any more...and where once there was life, there is now death...and the attitude rife amongst many of us concerning the Jews, shows that Pauls fears were grounded in the Holy Ghost.

This 'breaking off' is not immediately obvious, it happens over time, and many movements that were once full of the Spirit, are now utterly devoid of the Spirit...and the demarkation between those that love and support the Jewish people and their Jewish Believing brethren is becoming more obvious....especially since 1948 and the re-establishmnet of the nation of Israel. I don't believe the Spirit of G-d will continue to hang around or bless those that set themselves up as G-ds chosen replacement for His people....and although He is merciful and longsuffering towards us...there is a process going on, a sifting and a testing that amongst other things is also connected to where we stand regarding the Jewish people.

To summerise...the 'breaking off' is a slow almost imperceptible paradigm shift within the Gentile Body....and the 'grafting in again' is becoming more and more evident because the focus is on a much narrower section of people.

That's an intersting point. Have you read "Salvation is from the Jews"? It discusses some of these issues, especially the impact of the Holocaust and end times prophecies.

You might find it interesting. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Salvation-Jews-Roy-H-Schoeman/dp/089870975X

The author is a Jewish convert to Catholicism, but most of the book is related to the relationship and role of the Jewish people to Christianity in general, among other things.

Thanks bro...the book sounds interesting and I will order it this week.

I recently read a book by Scott Hahn as I listened to him interviewed on EWTN...subject matter was different, but provocative.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

James is addressed to believers and therefore presupposes their salvation, and chapter 2 is not a treatment on how to obtain salvation.

James 2 does not say "A man is saved by works because faith without works is dead", but Ephesians 2:8-9 does say "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

One specifies how we are saved, it is the gift of God which we know from Romans is eternal life, and that is not of works.

The other makes no mention of salvation explicitly.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Paul clarifies here:

Eph 5

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.a 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Paul does not clarify there, that's foolish. The letter to the Ephesians starts very differently "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). If we've been made holy and blameless in His sight, and that's established at the forefront of the letter, then we don't qualify as the immoral, impure or greedy person so spoken of here, neither then should we act in such a manner, as established in the passage you quote.

Ripping that out of it's context of having been made holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4), and saved as a gift by grace through faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) won't help you with James 2.

I fully agree that such faith won't save anyone, because what good is such faith? The fact that false faith doesn't save does not mean that Ephesians 2:8-9 is wrong and that we're actually not saved as a gift by grace through faith, not by works.

Once again, being a follower of Christ is not a magic trick. We can't fool God into saving us through false faith like the belief in God that the demons have but the rejection of His will over our lives, nor can we exert control over it by making the gift into something we earn through works.

It has to be a genuine faith of repentence and submission with the fear and trembling of a broken and contrite heart, wherein we are crucified with Christ so it is not we who live by Christ in us. We can't fool God with false faith (as in James 2) nor can we pay Him back, earn, merit or otherwise sustain or salvation (as in Ephesians 2:8-9), and I can continue to show this to be true regardless of which passage you choose to do violence towards by ripping them out of their context and trying to make scripture war against itself.

Scripture's not in conflict but in harmony, so if you're presenting conflict among the verses then it's coming from you and your man made traditions that nullify instead of glorify the Word of God.

So, how about my invitation to join me in the soapbox forum to hash this out?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

James is addressed to believers and therefore presupposes their salvation, and chapter 2 is not a treatment on how to obtain salvation.

James 2 does not say "A man is saved by works because faith without works is dead", but Ephesians 2:8-9 does say "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

One specifies how we are saved, it is the gift of God which we know from Romans is eternal life, and that is not of works.

The other makes no mention of salvation explicitly.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Paul clarifies here:

Eph 5

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.a 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Paul does not clarify there, that's foolish. The letter to the Ephesians starts very differently "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). If we've been made holy and blameless in His sight, and that's established that the forefront of the letter, then we don't qualify as the immoral, impure or greedy person so spoken of here, neither then should we act in such a manner, as established in the passage you quote.

Ripping that out of it's context of having been made holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4), and saved as a gift by grace through faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) won't help you with James 2.

I fully agree that such faith won't save anyone, because what good is such faith? The fact that false faith doesn't save does not mean that Ephesians 2:8-9 is wrong and that we're actually not saved as a gift by grace through faith, not by works.

Once again, being a follower of Christ is not a magic trick. We can't fool God into saving us through false faith like the belief in God that the demons have but the rejection of His will over our lives, nor can we exert control over it by making the gift into something we earn through works.

It has to be a genuine faith of repentance and submission with the fear and trembling of a broken and contrite heart, wherein we are crucified with Christ so it is not we who live by Christ in us. We can't fool God with false faith (as in James 2) nor can we pay Him back (as in Ephesians 2:8-9), and I can continue to show this to be true regardless of which passage you choose to do violence towards by ripping them out of their context and trying to make scripture war against itself.

Scripture's not in conflict but in harmony, so if you're presenting conflict among the verses then it's coming from you and your man made traditions that nullify instead of glorify the Word of God.

So, how about my invitation to join me in the soapbox forum to hash this out?

Eph 5 comes after the first four chapters,

Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down there… I’m lost…

Are you saying that chapter five come after the first four chapters?

You just blew my mind.

O wait, no that was my point in the first place in pointing out the context established in the previous chapters, like how we’re holy and blameless in God’s sight before creation, and that we’re saved by the gift of eternal life by grace through faith, not by works so you’ve misdirected your fire and shot your own foot.

which is why Paul's warning in chapter five is an important clarification.

He emphacized a specific point and you seem intent on ignoring it for some reason.

Eph 5

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.a 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Once again you've misued the word ignoring, leading me to suppose that perhaps you're unclear as to the definition of the word ignoring, so here we are:

ig•nore

–verb (used with object), -nored, -nor•ing.

1.

to refrain from noticing or recognizing: to ignore insulting remarks.

2.

Law . (of a grand jury) to reject (a bill of indictment), as on the grounds of insufficient evidence

OK, so you'll see that I've addressed the point you made already:

The letter to the Ephesians starts very differently "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). If we've been made holy and blameless in His sight, and that's established that the forefront of the letter, then we don't qualify as the immoral, impure or greedy person so spoken of here, neither then should we act in such a manner, as established in the passage you quote.

Ripping that out of its context of having been made holy and blameless (Ephesians 1:4), and saved as a gift by grace through faith not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) won't help you with James 2.

Ergo, you’ve misapplied the word ‘ignoring', and my point stands.

So again, let’s look at the other passages in Ephesians:

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4)

I’ll put it to you, does it or does it not state that Christians are chosen to be holy and blameless in His sight before the creation of the world?

I submit that unlike your failed attempt to parallel James 2 with Ephesians, which we’ve already discussed clearly have very different purposes, Ephesians 1:4 very closely parallels Colossians 1:22), “But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.”

And of course we still have Ephesians 2:8-9 which still states that by grace through faith we are saved, not by works, is the gift of God.

So, looking back up to that definition of ignoring, that’s what you’re doing, so you’re committing once again the ‘I know you are but what am I’ fallacy by accusing me of the error of which you’re guilty.

Scripture's not in conflict but in harmony, so if you're presenting conflict among the verses then it's coming from you and your man made traditions that nullify instead of glorify the Word of God.

So, how about my invitation to join me in the soapbox forum to hash this out?

[Guest shiloh357]

James is addressed to believers and therefore presupposes their salvation, and chapter 2 is not a treatment on how to obtain salvation.

James 2 does not say "A man is saved by works because faith without works is dead", but Ephesians 2:8-9 does say "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

One specifies how we are saved, it is the gift of God which we know from Romans is eternal life, and that is not of works.

The other makes no mention of salvation explicitly.

James 2

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

Paul clarifies here:

Eph 5

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.a 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

With reference to James 2:14, you are, again, taking the verse out of the context of what follows. James' point is not that faith and works are necessary for salvation. His point is that when all one has a mere profession and it not biblical faith that produces deeds to evidence it authenticity.

Faith has no causal influence on salvation; it has no power or efficacy on its own to effect salvation in the heart. Faith does not justify, does not give us the right to an inheritance; true biblical faith receives these things. Faith is the means by which we take hold of the promises of God. That kind of faith is naturally accompanied by corresponding actions, a life that evidences the genuine nature of a true profession of faith in Christ.

The way to know if one's profession is true, is thruogh how they live, especially when they don't think anyone is watching. Dwight L. Moody once said that a man's true character is what he is in the dark. Works don't justify you before God, but they do justify and affirm your testimony in the sight of men, and that is the full message of James 2:14-26. Keep in mind that James is not discussing the Doctrine of Justification. James is talking about having a life that agrees with your testimony.

As for Ephesians 5:3-5, What Paul is doing is making an exhortation for the believers in Ephesus not to behave like those who have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. The motivation was to avoid that kind of behavior so as not to incur the wrath of God and be swept away in the judgment of God.

To say that Paul "clarifies" James 2:14-26 is just not accurate. They are speaking to two entirely different issues and contexts. Just arbitrarily grabbing a couple of verses doesn't cut it.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I'll hash it out anywhere you like.

OK, let's set that up then.

Using your method of scripture study, we could conclude that salvation is by works alone by isolating this passage(among others):

Rom 6 God “will give to each person according to what he has done.”a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I'm forced to draw your attention to the fact that you tired to demonstrate that such was the case by iscolating passages, and failed because my method is to exogete passages in their context, and compare them to relevant parallel passages.

Ergo, it's plain to see that your criticism is of your own method, and in opposition to mine.

Further to that, in accordance with my method, I'll point out that the above passage is framed by the context of these passages before hand, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Romans 3:22), "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5) and this one that comes after, "... the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23), which directly state the opposite of the subjective inference you're making about the passage you quote.

That's what I've been telling you, you have to read what the Bible says and believe the positive statements, instead of making inferences according to what you assume the Bible implies, and taking those assumptions to other passages and forcing them to war with one another.

Harmonize, my dear, harmonize.

However, a more comprehensive reading paints a different picture.

Are we saved by grace? Absolutely.

How about dealing with the question I put to you, which you've clumpsily failed to out manuveur?

Does scripture say that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, and such is the gift of God?

Is there something lacking in the suffering of Christ? Absolutely!

Our cooperation is lacking, which is what he requires of us for salvation. You seem to think that because we don't have to follow the Jewish Law that we don't have to obey the teachings of Jesus. That's not a biblical view.

That's just a miserable false dichotomy.

I believe we are saved by grace through faith, that is the gift of God, not by works, just like scripture says.

So through faith would mean that I have to cooperate, doesn't it? And how would one have a saving faith, which entails repentence and totally submission to God's will over their life by dying to themselves so that it's not they who live but Christ in them, without cooperation?

That's not the issue, is it? No, indeed not.

The issue is that you believe that we have to work towards our salvation. That's the necessary qualifier that you artlessly omitted.

In addition, my idea is most certainly not that we don't have to follow the teachings of Jesus, but hey, strawmen are just so much easier to push around, hey?

Your Church claims it has established the 'New Law', but the Bible talks about freedom from the Law. Did you think God's commandments to Moses were lacking? That He simply didn't know what He was talking about, so He needed to refresh the Law? Foolishness.

Here's the problem, the RCC takes everything the Bible warns against, from bowing down to graven images, to consulting the dead, to establishing a new law based on the traditions of man not the word of God, to boasting in human leaders, to forbidding people to marry, to adorning itself with all the scarlet and purple robes, golden chalises, etc. as depicted as the whore of Babylon, and the list goes on and on, and makes up the flimsiest legalistic excuses to try to justify mirroring everything with which we're warned against having any sort of connection.

Why you'd want to fight so hard to mirror that which God has outlawed is anyone's guess but to suggest that such epitomizes adherence to the commandments of Jesus would be laughable if it wasn't so heinous.

Does scripture say that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works, and such is the gift of God?

Does scripture say that the gift of God is eternal life?

The answers you've been failing to provide, I will now supply: Yes, on both counts.

Is that a subjective interpretation on my part? No, because the words I've used are simply the words in scripture.

By contrast, there is no verse that states our cooperation of works is lacking, which is what He requires of us for salvation. That's something you're adding, which directly contradicts what the Bible states explicitly when it states, "But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation" (Col. 1:22), "... we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10), and "... the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men... For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 5:18; and 6:23).

So then, since you're following your imaginiation instead of God's word I should warn you that "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:5-6).