We must have continuing faith

[mizzdy]

If faith is given by Him, and maintained by Him, and we have no part in it whatsoever, how is this any different to the hyper version of predestination calvinism pushes? To be honest I don't believe we have no part in salvation, I do believe we need to keep having faith.

Faith in the hebraic sense of the word is also an action, we need to keep coming to Him just as Moses was seen as the 'nursing father' whose children kept on needing him, we are always in need of going to Him to for comfort, knowledge, guideance we never stop needing Him. The idea that faith is somehow connected to what we know about God rather than knowing we can trust Him and all His words. Faith is our personal response to Him. Its maintained by our personal relationship with Him, if I misspoke that I'm sorry. If we do not work on that relationship it will become broken just as any relationship with anyone else we need to work on it with Him. I still cannot see how its how we access salvation since I think we do nothing but heed His voice and come back to Him to confess Him above all else and to confess Yeshua the living Messiah. I don't much care about calvinism myself nor do I see what faith or grace has to do with predestination but thats another thread.

shalom,

Mizz

[~candice~]

Shiloh, maybe we do need to take this elsewhere, LOL.

What do you do with this:

Mat 13:20 But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy.

Mat 13:21 But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the Word, he immediately stumbles.

Mat 13:22 And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the Word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the Word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Who do you blame for the death of the faith found in two of these categories (seed sown in stony places, seed choked by thorns). In both cases, some faith was seen and later died. Now, if you say we have no role in maintaining our faith, then the only other person to place the blame upon is the Lord.

That is hyper predestination, calvinism, and I won't buy it.

[Guest]

OSNAS = Once Saved Not Always Saved. People who ascribe to this idea believe that one can loose their salvation, as if salvation is a work, that you must maintain it. They believe that one can "change their mind" and stop believing in Jesus Christ and the Cross, thus loosing their salvation. As if God would waste his Mercy and Grace on someone whom He knows does not have saving faith.

[enoob57]

The only way this subject can be attended to in the proper light is first to accept the truth that there is nothing of old in the new and the new in the old Rom 7 thus kept so by The Father for the Glory unto His Son... once this is established as foundational truth the only build upon it is eternal security of the Truly Born Again in Him....else the only way they could go out from us is they were never of us! 1 Jn... Love Steven

[~candice~]

OSNAS = Once Saved Not Always Saved. People who ascribe to this idea believe that one can loose their salvation, as if salvation is a work, that you must maintain it. They believe that one can "change their mind" and stop believing in Jesus Christ and the Cross, thus loosing their salvation. As if God would waste his Mercy and Grace on someone whom He knows does not have saving faith.

Salvation is by grace and it is not a work. It's a gift. But it's something accessible only through faith, so when the faith is dead, there is no longer access to this gift. Your last sentence is interesting though. Read 1 John 2:1-2 and tell me, did Jesus die for everyone's sins, or only those who would eventually be saved? My bible says He died for ALL, so as pretty as your last sentence sounds, it is not valid. The free gift is available to all because He died for all people's sins, if you call that a waste of His grace and mercy, ok, but justify it with the Word.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, maybe we do need to take this elsewhere, LOL.

Well, we can soapbox it any time you are ready. Just give the word.

Who do you blame for the death of the faith found in two of these categories (seed sown in stony places, seed choked by thorns).

are you assuming that this referring to faith at the moment of salvation?

In both cases, some faith was seen and later died. Now, if you say we have no role in maintaining our faith, then the only other person to place the blame upon is the Lord.

Which is why it is a good thing I never said anything about us having no role in maintaining our faith. I said we have no role in maintaining our salvation.

That is hyper predestination, calvinism, and I won't buy it.

I don't see where that has anything to do with what we are talking about.

[Guest]

The only way this subject can be attended to in the proper light is first to accept the truth that there is nothing of old in the new and the new in the old Rom 7 thus kept so by The Father for the Glory unto His Son... once this is established as foundational truth the only build upon it is eternal security of the Truly Born Again in Him....else the only way they could go out from us is they were never of us! 1 Jn... Love Steven

AMEN BROTHER!!

[~candice~]

Who do you blame for the death of the faith found in two of these categories (seed sown in stony places, seed choked by thorns).

are you assuming that this referring to faith at the moment of salvation?

Shiloh, not sure what you mean by this? It's obvious that these people had some initial faith that later died. There is no way they are saved, the parable makes that clear. So why did their faith die? Is the onus on man or God or both? This relates to the issue of who maintains our faith (not our salvation, but our faith).

In both cases, some faith was seen and later died. Now, if you say we have no role in maintaining our faith, then the only other person to place the blame upon is the Lord.

Which is why it is a good thing I never said anything about us having no role in maintaining our faith. I said we have no role in maintaining our salvation.

Uh, what? Explain your version how how we maintain our own faith. I never claimed we maintain our own salvation.

That is hyper predestination, calvinism, and I won't buy it.

I don't see where that has anything to do with what we are talking about.

If God starts the faith, maintains it, and we have no input into it whatsoever, then salvation is entirely in His hands, as per calvinist predestination. Seems you aren't saying that we have no input though? I'm unclear what your position is TBH.

[Guest]

OSNAS = Once Saved Not Always Saved. People who ascribe to this idea believe that one can loose their salvation, as if salvation is a work, that you must maintain it. They believe that one can "change their mind" and stop believing in Jesus Christ and the Cross, thus loosing their salvation. As if God would waste his Mercy and Grace on someone whom He knows does not have saving faith.

Salvation is by grace and it is not a work. It's a gift. But it's something accessible only through faith, so when the faith is dead, there is no longer access to this gift. Your last sentence is interesting though. Read 1 John 2:1-2 and tell me, did Jesus die for everyone's sins, or only those who would eventually be saved? My bible says He died for ALL, so as pretty as your last sentence sounds, it is not valid. The free gift is available to all because He died for all people's sins, if you call that a waste of His grace and mercy, ok, but justify it with the Word.

Christ died for everyone. But salvation is only for those who have faith in Him and what He did on the Cross. You can't be saved by just believing in Christ. You have to take the Cross, too. God knows who will truly have the faith, the saving faith, that it takes to obtain salvation. Do you really believe that it brings any Glory to God if He were to loose one that professed acceptance in Christ and then "changes" their mind? Read the prayer of Christ and the Apostles just prior to the betrayal of Judas. It is in John, Chapter 17 vss 1-26:

Jesus Prays for Himself

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

Jesus Prays for All Believers

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."

“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” (NKJV)

Now, to me, that sounds a lot like Christ's death and Resurrection, done for the Glory of God, was for everyone who chooses to accept it; to the Glory of God, and that those who do accept it will never walk away because it would take away from the Glory of God and of Christ. Therefore, they were never saved to begin with. That is my position and my words are not just "pretty" and fluff. They are Scriptural, and quite clear.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 10 July 2011 - 08:51 PM, said:

Quote

Who do you blame for the death of the faith found in two of these categories (seed sown in stony places, seed choked by thorns).

are you assuming that this referring to faith at the moment of salvation?

Shiloh, not sure what you mean by this? It's obvious that these people had some initial faith that later died.

Where does that parable say anything about faith? I don't see that is obvious that they had any faith at all. In fact, given the description, it would seem they had no faith. They heard the word (whatever that word happened to be) but they did not mix it with faith. There NOTHING in that passage that indicates that the people mentioned in the parable had faith.

There is no way they are saved, the parable makes that clear.

Really? Where does the parable claim that they were unsaved or lost salvation???

So why did their faith die? Is the onus on man or God or both? This relates to the issue of who maintains our faith (not our salvation, but our faith).

Again, you have not proven that they had faith to begin with.

Uh, what? Explain your version how how we maintain our own faith. I never claimed we maintain our own salvation.

I never said you made that claim. My point is that you keep asking me to defend a position I have not advocated for.

But if we follow your position to its logical conclusion, your position IS that we must maintain faith in order to maintain salvation. That is the ultimate end of the process of your argument. Where I disagree is that it makes faith a saving agent. If our faith falters, we lose salvation is where you are taking this. All you need is Scripture that expressly says what you are saying.

If God starts the faith, maintains it, and we have no input into it whatsoever, then salvation is entirely in His hands, as per calvinist predestination. Seems you aren't saying that we have no input though? I'm unclear what your position is TBH.

I am addressnig your postion from the standpoint of the conclusion it leads to. "Maintaining faith" is not a biblical concept and part of the problem and why you cannot find Scripture that serves to support your position is that you are injecting an unbiblical concept in to the mix where salvation is concerned.

If we have to maintain a certain level of faith to remain saved, then salvation becomes a matter of performance. It becomes a matter of personal merit. I would be saved because I deserved it, because I kept my faith strong and in doing so, salvation becomes a reward for service and not a free gift. If it is something I have to hold on to and keep for myself, then it is not a gift.

Faith is merely the conduit the means by which we receive the gift. Saviing grace is not something that has to be piped into us every day or else we lose it.

Authentic believers do not characteristicaly waffle back and forth between faith and no faith. They may lose faith in moments of discouragement and they may question God, but that is not cause for God to rescind their salvation.