Jesus did not die to make men savable

[Fez]

OK, I found the quote:

"I believe this to be one of the edges of the conquering weapon. We are to preach that the Son of God has come in the flesh and died for human sin, and that in dying he did not only make it possible for God to forgive, but he secured forgiveness for all who are in him. He did not die to make men savable, but to save them. He came not that sin might be put aside at some future time, but to put it away there and then by the sacrifice of himself; for by his death he "finished transgressions, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness." Believers may know that when Jesus died they were delivered from the claims of law, and when he rose again their justification was secured. The blood of the Lamb is a real price, which did effectually ransom. The blood of the Lamb is a real cleansing, which did really purge away sin. This we believe and declare; and by this sign we conquer. Christ crucified, Christ the sacrifice for sin, Christ the effectual Redeemer of men, we will proclaim everywhere, and thus put to rout the powers of darkness."

from:

The Blood of the Lamb the Conquering Weapon

by Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892).

Full sermon here

I don't think it's him attempting to debate, but let us know the fullness of Christ work. Concerning the quote. I would have to say I can agree. He didn't die to make us saveable but to save us. A complete work is what He did. You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved. The fullness of the work is the object. I think we often miss that by looking at who the work was toward, and even the rejection of the work. His work is complete for those who desire to receive it.

You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved.

I like that analogy

Jesus died so that we may be saved. But when He throws the life saver to us, free will dictates whether we grab it and hang on for all our life or not. Had He not died for our sins, and given us the free will to choose, His "boat", could have just sailed on by without stopping to offer us life.

The difference between savable (His choice through His death), or being saved (our choice through His death).

If you get my drift....

[~candice~]

OK, I found the quote:

"I believe this to be one of the edges of the conquering weapon. We are to preach that the Son of God has come in the flesh and died for human sin, and that in dying he did not only make it possible for God to forgive, but he secured forgiveness for all who are in him. He did not die to make men savable, but to save them. He came not that sin might be put aside at some future time, but to put it away there and then by the sacrifice of himself; for by his death he "finished transgressions, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness." Believers may know that when Jesus died they were delivered from the claims of law, and when he rose again their justification was secured. The blood of the Lamb is a real price, which did effectually ransom. The blood of the Lamb is a real cleansing, which did really purge away sin. This we believe and declare; and by this sign we conquer. Christ crucified, Christ the sacrifice for sin, Christ the effectual Redeemer of men, we will proclaim everywhere, and thus put to rout the powers of darkness."

from:

The Blood of the Lamb the Conquering Weapon

by Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892).

Full sermon here

I don't think it's him attempting to debate, but let us know the fullness of Christ work. Concerning the quote. I would have to say I can agree. He didn't die to make us saveable but to save us. A complete work is what He did. You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved. The fullness of the work is the object. I think we often miss that by looking at who the work was toward, and even the rejection of the work. His work is complete for those who desire to receive it.

You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved.

I like that analogy

Jesus died so that we may be saved. But when He throws the life saver to us, free will dictates whether we grab it and hang on for all our life or not. Had He not died for our sins, and given us the free will to choose, His "boat", could have just sailed on by without stopping to offer us life.

The difference between savable (His choice through His death), or being saved (our choice through His death).

If you get my drift....

Jesus work and only His work saves us, but we must access it via faith. Jesus death, without accessing it via faith, does not lead to salvation. Otherwise, since He died for all sins (1 John 2:2) all men would be saved.

[methinkshe]

OK, I found the quote:

"I believe this to be one of the edges of the conquering weapon. We are to preach that the Son of God has come in the flesh and died for human sin, and that in dying he did not only make it possible for God to forgive, but he secured forgiveness for all who are in him. He did not die to make men savable, but to save them. He came not that sin might be put aside at some future time, but to put it away there and then by the sacrifice of himself; for by his death he "finished transgressions, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness." Believers may know that when Jesus died they were delivered from the claims of law, and when he rose again their justification was secured. The blood of the Lamb is a real price, which did effectually ransom. The blood of the Lamb is a real cleansing, which did really purge away sin. This we believe and declare; and by this sign we conquer. Christ crucified, Christ the sacrifice for sin, Christ the effectual Redeemer of men, we will proclaim everywhere, and thus put to rout the powers of darkness."

from:

The Blood of the Lamb the Conquering Weapon

by Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892).

Full sermon here

I don't think it's him attempting to debate, but let us know the fullness of Christ work. Concerning the quote. I would have to say I can agree. He didn't die to make us saveable but to save us. A complete work is what He did. You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved. The fullness of the work is the object. I think we often miss that by looking at who the work was toward, and even the rejection of the work. His work is complete for those who desire to receive it.

You don't throw a life saver to someone in the middle of the ocean so they can be saveable. You throw it so they can be saved.

I like that analogy

Jesus died so that we may be saved. But when He throws the life saver to us, free will dictates whether we grab it and hang on for all our life or not. Had He not died for our sins, and given us the free will to choose, His "boat", could have just sailed on by without stopping to offer us life.

The difference between savable (His choice through His death), or being saved (our choice through His death).

If you get my drift....

Jesus work and only His work saves us, but we must access it via faith. Jesus death, without accessing it via faith, does not lead to salvation. Otherwise, since He died for all sins (1 John 2:2) all men would be saved.

Jesus' death doesn't save us, per se, it is His resurrection life within us that saves - that is, gives life - and eternal life at that. If Jesus had not risen from the dead then we would remain dead in our sins.

It seems to me that you are looking for a prescriptive definition of salvation when in fact salvation lies in the person of the risen Lord Jesus. Jesus abiding in and with the believer. We live beacuse Christ lives in us.

I find it helps to view these statements in the continuous tense rather than past and/or present.

Thus, we ARE LIVING (and will continue living) because Christ, who is alive for evermore, lives in us. It is only because Christ lives in us that we we share His resurrection life.

Alternatively, we are dying (and will continue dying) because the life of Christ - the lifegiver - is NOT in us.

[~candice~]

MTS - No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

[methinkshe]

No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

If Jesus is but an AGENT, rather than the divine presence in a believer then He is just a sub-God entity.

What you say is, imo, blasphemous. You are denying the deity of Jesus. Jesus becomes nothing more than an "expression" rather than an actuating spirit when, in fact, WE are the expression and Jesus is the actuator. Anything less reduces Jesus to the level of mere humanity.

[~candice~]

No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

If Jesus is but an AGENT, rather than the divine presence in a believer then He is just a sub-God entity.

What you say is, imo, blasphemous. You are denying the deity of Jesus. Jesus becomes nothing more than an "expression" rather than an actuating spirit when, in fact, WE are the expression and Jesus is the actuator. Anything less reduces Jesus to the level of mere humanity.

Umm... what? I never denied His deity. I also never said that He is only an agent (actually, it's His death that is the agent), because He is far more than that. I merely corrected you error, by stating that it is His death, not His resurrection, that is the effective agent of salvation.

[methinkshe]

No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

If Jesus is but an AGENT, rather than the divine presence in a believer then He is just a sub-God entity.

What you say is, imo, blasphemous. You are denying the deity of Jesus. Jesus becomes nothing more than an "expression" rather than an actuating spirit when, in fact, WE are the expression and Jesus is the actuator. Anything less reduces Jesus to the level of mere humanity.

Umm... what? I never denied His deity. I also never said that He is only an agent (actually, it's His death that is the agent), because He is far more than that. I merely corrected you error, by stating that it is His death, not His resurrection, that is the effective agent of salvation.

I disagree. It is Jesus' resurrection that saves - that is, gives eternal life. How can death bring eternal life?

[Guest shiloh357]

No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

If Jesus is but an AGENT, rather than the divine presence in a believer then He is just a sub-God entity.

What you say is, imo, blasphemous. You are denying the deity of Jesus. Jesus becomes nothing more than an "expression" rather than an actuating spirit when, in fact, WE are the expression and Jesus is the actuator. Anything less reduces Jesus to the level of mere humanity.

You are misreading her comment. She said that Jesus' DEATH is the effective agent of salvation. She is not denying the deity of Jesus. The use of the of the word "agent" simply denotes where salvation comes from, its source. Jesus' death is the source of our salvation. Jesus' death redeemed us from the curse of the Law, it paid for our deliverance from the bondage of sin. If anything Candice is highlighting the effecaciousness and expiation of Jesus' sacrifice. The resurrection is, among other things, our hope and guarantee of our own resurrection. The resurrection is the justification of all that Jesus said and did. It is the testimony of the truth of the Scriptures.

[~candice~]

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,

[Guest shiloh357]

No no no, Jesus death IS the effective agent of salvation, it is the expression of God's grace and love for us. His resurrection is not what saves us, His resurrection is what gives us confidence that His death is effectual for salvation and that He is who He said He is. Jesus death does save when we access it through faith, as per Eph 2:8-9.

If Jesus is but an AGENT, rather than the divine presence in a believer then He is just a sub-God entity.

What you say is, imo, blasphemous. You are denying the deity of Jesus. Jesus becomes nothing more than an "expression" rather than an actuating spirit when, in fact, WE are the expression and Jesus is the actuator. Anything less reduces Jesus to the level of mere humanity.

Umm... what? I never denied His deity. I also never said that He is only an agent (actually, it's His death that is the agent), because He is far more than that. I merely corrected you error, by stating that it is His death, not His resurrection, that is the effective agent of salvation.

I disagree. It is Jesus' resurrection that saves - that is, gives eternal life. How can death bring eternal life?

The work of salvation was done on the cross. The resurrection is the seal and justification of that work. But all of salvation was paid for on the cross. Paul's central message was "Christ and Him crucified." The cross is where we find forgiveness and deliverance from sin.