LEGALISM

[apothanein kerdos]

Concerning Romans 14 (which doesn't deal just with dietary law, but also with "special days"....Paul is addressing a principle here):

Christians are at different levels of spiritual maturity. They also have diverse backgrounds that color their attitudes and practices. The first lesson to learn in living harmoniously with other Christians, therefore, is to stop judging others.

14:1-4. The focus in these verses is on him whose faith is weak (lit.,

[justme7]

mr&mrs sealed eternal

:"The entire point of the law is that we all fall short. That isn't a reason to throw out the law. If you were turned off by someones alledged legalism, either they did not share God's commandments out of love to exhort you to make yourself a better Christian, or there was a problem with your heart that you didn't want correction.

Legalism is an unbiblical term, and each person defines it differently. According to the dictionary, it means to adhere strongly to God's moral laws, which every Christian should consider a virtue. It is the attitude of the Pharisees which caused them to sin, and not the fact that they tried too hard to adhere to God's commands. They didn't love God, and weren't keeping His laws to please Him. They were keeping them to impress men, and to glorify themselves."

i think you may have misunderstood my feeling. i am in no way desirous that the law of GOD be done away with. on the contrary, as another person posted, the law and grace go hand in hand...praise the LORD. it is the law of men that i find offensive. if we as believers only listen to what men tell us is right and wrong, we'd be a constant mess since men tend to disagree on these topics. the Word is our discerner right?? if you tell me it is sin to dance and i find no biblical grounds for such restrictions than i will disregard what you have said. if you tell me that it is sin to fornicate, i can clearly see the truth of that in the Word. that's the difference. i advocate adherence to the law of GOD 100%. what i find troubling is the forcing of and teaching of the law of men as if it were the law of GOD.

this in my book is and will be an area of concern for believers. there is nothing new under the sun right?? the attitude of the pharisees and scribes were wrong. while they did focus on strict adherance to the law (which is desirable and good), they went a step farther and wanted to make more laws, based on their own understanding. i do not discredit them for adherence at all.

here are a few scriptures that i believe speak directly to the heart of this thread:

woe to you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithes of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law; justice and mercy and faith. these you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

Matt 23:23-24

receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. for one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and leat not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for GOD has received him. who are you to judge another's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. indeed, he will be made to stand, for GOD is able to make him stand. Romans 14:1-4

your glorying is not good. do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. for indeed, CHRIST, our PASSOVER, was sacrificed for us. therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1Corinth 5:6-8

so let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of CHRIST. let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly nimd, and not holding fast to the HEAD, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from GOD. therefore, if you died with CHRIST from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--'do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,' which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men? these things indeed have the appearance of wisdom and self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. Coloss 2:16-23

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling Philip 2:12

Edited January 2, 2006 by justme7

[Guest candy5]

I'm gonna be honest i didnt read all 16 pages of posts but here's my 2 cents:

God gave the Israelites 10 rules to live by, they didnt want to even come close to breaking these laws so they came up with over six thousand more rules to live by that kept them from breaking the law God gave(which they broke anyway but not the point)........

There are three different levels of christian living in my experience: legalism, liberty and liscence.

Legalism being well basically what the Jews tried to be(perfect).

Liberty is living balanced between the law and God's grace

Liscence is basically saying "hey i'm going to heaven anyway who cares."

the way i see it some people need to be legalistic to keep themselves far away from temptation..for example my old youth pastor doesnt drink alcohol not a drop in is whole forty some odd years of living just because he doesnt want the temptation of getting drunk OR for some other member of the body of Christ to see him and cause that person to stumble......some people put what seems to be legalistic rules in their lives to keep them from teptation and sin

the problem comes when those people start to impose their set of rules on others. that is where the negative view of legalism comes from obviously.

in my own life i dont see a problem with drinking a bit of alcohol now and then, if i do not allow it to take over a certain part of my life becoming an addiction of some sort. i do have a tattoo and for me i dont feel that i am sinning in any way but i am certainly not going to try to force someone else to believe what i do and i would certainly not want someone to impose their oposing view of the law on me....that is where the problem lies is people trying to force their set of rules on other believers

of course, in the black and white areas we should hold each other accountable and do so in love but i also believe that in those "diputable matters" as paul puts it we should not say what is right or wrong for someone else, we should allow them to live under christian liberty that comes with the balance of the law and grace....but also be aware of the fine line between liberty and liscence.

[Kabowd]

Wow...this topic is still alive! Good post candy..and welcome to the boards

[DaniJ87]

wow... there is a lot in this post... and it is funny that nobody started arguing with it, until the last few pages.... I am wondering what that means... did all the people who started arguing just not come to this board when it was begun?

I emphatically agree that we really need to be careful about defining "sins" for others. I am not going to use the word legalism, merely because I don't think the dictionary definition does it justice.

I have things that I do and do not do, because of my personal feelings.. there is nothing wrong with that. However, I would be sinning, if I told another person that those same things are horrible sins, and you will go to hell/are not a good Christian/are backslidden, if you do this... For example, I do not celebrate halloween, because of what it is. However, I have gone to a "costume" party at my friend's house, which we did not call halloween, (I dressed as a tree..) and had a lot of fun... it was a "fall party". This does not mean that I will condemn anyone who does celebrate halloween... My mother celebrated halloween when she was a little girl...

I like Romans 14, because it is so clear. If it does not seem clear to you in what it is saying, pray, read it again, and perhaps read it in several bible translations. I don't study with the Message version, but I think I want to get one, just so I can compare things every once in awhile. It can be refreshing to read things in a different version, because it's different than what you're used to.

One thing that does bother me, is that we are all so inconsistent... when is it ok to do something that could possibly offend another Christian? If I like listening to contemporary Christian music, do I have to cease from listening to it, if I was spending a lot of time with people who thought it was bad? The thing that bothers me, is that these people that I try not to offend, don't get it... You are not supposed to be offended by other people's freedom choices... Why is it that the rigid rule makers rule things? I don't mind the things they like... so why do they have to be so stubborn, so that I cannot enjoy the things I like, around them?

I don't know if that came out right... but it seems like the "do not cause your brother to be offended", gets applied wrong, and in only one direction. We need to remember that not only are we supposed to go out of our way not to offend others, that we ALSO need to go out of our way NOT to be offended.

When someone said, "well then, Jesus was a legalist..." they didn't take into account Jesus' way of ministering to people. He went to dinner, (invited!) with sinners... Now... do you think they would have invited Him if He had been known to constantly lambaste sinners? He didn't. He showed them love, at the same time as showing them that they were wrong. He didn't always have to tell them... sometimes they already knew they had failed... this happens to me sometimes... I make a mistake, know I have made it, and feel terrible about it... now, in this circumstance, I really DON"T need my daddy to tell me what a horrible mistake I made, or point it out. I am already ashamed of it, and am sorry for it. What I would need from him more, would be a hug, forgiveness, and love.

you know... I just had another thought...

could it be that many of these people who add to God's words and His law, are afraid for their salvation? Do they not understand the concept of God's grace, and that once you are saved, He never, ever lets you go? You do not have to follow a set of rules in order to be saved. Instead, you will likely follow a way of living because you are saved, and because you love God. Doing things out of love, is different than following rules. Rules are not necessary, once you have God's love to rule you. You will have a desire to do what is right... and when you don't, you will know it deep within your heart.

[Guest candy5]

Wow...this topic is still alive! Good post candy..and welcome to the boards

THANX

I just think we need to find a balance....it's not all about the law and it's not 100% about grace. Without the law we would not know of grace, and it is because of His grace and mercy that we willingly try to follow His commands. not out of a sense of obligation or a " i have to " attitude it's out of love and we are glad to not be running around acting like a bunch of dirtbags "because of grace."

i really hope that made sense to everyone and not just me haha

[Kabowd]

I love this quote by Brennan Manning from "The Ragamuffin Gospel":

No greater sinners exist than those so-called Christians who disfigure the face of God, mutilate the gospel of grace, and intimidate others through fear. They corrupt the essential nature of Christianity.

and this one too:

Christianity is not primarily a moral code but a grace-laden mystery; it is not essentially a philosophy of love but a love affair; it is not keeping rules with clenched fists but receiving a gift with open hands.

[Smalcald]

I love this quote by Brennan Manning from "The Ragamuffin Gospel":

No greater sinners exist than those so-called Christians who disfigure the face of God, mutilate the gospel of grace, and intimidate others through fear. They corrupt the essential nature of Christianity.

and this one too:

Christianity is not primarily a moral code but a grace-laden mystery; it is not essentially a philosophy of love but a love affair; it is not keeping rules with clenched fists but receiving a gift with open hands.

Hi Tess is Christianity difficult as Chesterton points out in your quote?

I think it is, and a false sense of ease, Bonehoefer called it cheap grace, will leave us open to the wolves out there seeking to devour us. So I do think it is important to teach and preach about sin, about sins of the flesh for instance. Paul thought it important enough that he said that those who practice such things would not inherit the Kingdom of God, and he provided a description of those things. Obviously we need a path provided for us, that faith is shown through following this path, and those without faith will not follow this path, which is why Paul said they were not saved. We need to know when and what we should be repenting of and how we should be conforming our lives. Christ said that those not willing to suffer for Him are not worthy to be His.

However, I agree with you that extending things way way beyond scripture and finding it your duty to say that this will condemn some other person is not scriptural. Things like a drop of alcohol touching your lips, things like dancing or singing or using the internet, or some sort of strict clothing regime, all of those things are not mentioned in scripture (well the clothing is a little, but not much). So I basically agree with you, I just don't want to go to far the other way and do think we have scriptural support for being quiet clear about how to love Christ, part of which is how to follow His commandments.

[darski]

Guess you would really have a problem with traffic lights too eh? They are so legalistic; telling people what to do all the time. Yeah, bring those puppies down!

[allmylove4ugrowsdeeper]

Rom 7:14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a mortal, sold as a slave to sin.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do; for I don't do what I would like to do, but instead I do what I hate.

Rom 7:16 Since what I do is what I don't want to do, this shows that I agree that the Law is right.

Rom 7:17 So I am not really the one who does this thing; rather it is the sin that lives in me.

Rom 7:18 I know that good does not live in me---that is, in my human nature. For even though the desire to do good is in me, I am not able to do it.

Rom 7:19 I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.

Rom 7:20 If I do what I don't want to do, this means that I am no longer the one who does it; instead, it is the sin that lives in me.

Rom 7:21 So I find that this law is at work: when I want to do what is good, what is evil is the only choice I have.

Rom 7:22 My inner being delights in the law of God.

Rom 7:23 But I see a different law at work in my body---a law that fights against the law which my mind approves of. It makes me a prisoner to the law of sin which is at work in my body.

Rom 7:24 What an unhappy man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is taking me to death?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin.