What Jesus Said About Who He Is

[Guest]

Are you sure? You speak for every Christian? You know for a fact that every Christian speaks from experience? Think about this. Do not lie.

Thank You Dear One

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10

I Have Thought About It And Prayed About It And I Can Not Lie

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

For Without Jesus We Are Just Dead Men Walking

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

But With Active Faith In The LORD Jesus

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Because Of With His Holy Blood

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

We Will Never Perish

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

But We Will Live

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

For All Eternity

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12

With His Holy Father

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

And We Will Carry His Holy Name

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

Because He Died For Us, We Can Call Upon Him

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

And Because He Calls To Us, We Can Let Him In And Fellowship With Him

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20

____________

Dear One Are You Ready To Believe In Jesus The Messiah?

"For he says "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." 2 Corinthians 6:2

Yet.......

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:35-36

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Christian ideology is a belief about God developed by other men/women such as yourself based on a interpretation of the gospels.

That is not really accurate. The Christian faith/idealogy is founded on the resurection of Jesus.

Even that interpretation is varied among the different Christian denominations.

Not really. I am not sure what you are basing that on.

Those who know of what they speak should speak with one voice should they not? This is not the case with Christianity. Christianity speaks with many voices. Shouldn't that alone be a cause to question?

Not at all. That we have diversity speaks to the fact that no one is being brainwashed or forced to believe against their will or against their conscience. There is a freedom to be diverse.

The Bible says that we see through a glass darkly. We see in part and thus we know in part. None of us corner the market on the Bible. 90% of what we disagree about pertains to traditions and minor points of interpretation. But we stand united over the essential doctrines like the Deity of Jesus, the resurrection of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the authority of the Scriptures

Christians claim the authority of Jesus in support of their beliefs. However I wonder sometimes if Jesus would actually claim responsibility for those beliefs.

Specifically what beliefs are you referring to?

[nebula]

If you test something and decide for yourself, what happens with faith?

I believe you have a misunderstanding of what the word "faith" means.

You can research this yourself if you would like, but the Hebrew and Greek words which are translated into English as faith means "trust" (in Hebrew it has the added emphasis of "strong trust" and in Greek that of "persuasion, confidence").

All you've done with testing is confirming what or whom you have put faith in. No biggie.

Faith is necessitated by ignorance.

Whoever gave you this idea was seriously in error.

In the Bible Jesus healed the sick, brought the dead back to life. If you could do that, hey that'd be very convincing in my book.

If I pointed out testimonies to you of such happening, would you believe they actually happened?

[Nakosis]

Faith is necessitated by ignorance. Why would you want to solidify it?

That is not really true. Faith is based on evidence. Faith is neither blind nor ignorant regardless of what context you are speaking of.

Knowledge is based on evidence. Faith is necessary because of what you don't know. There's a balance here knowledge and faith. Knowledge/evidence may give cause for your faith however knowledge/experience should replace faith so there is less need for it. Ignorance is not a crime, it's a reality. One needs faith in a teacher because of their own ignorance, not because of what they know.

I think a better translation of the Greek word pistis (usually translated to faith) is "conviction". An old Greek friend of mine once told me "veneration" was a better understanding. In any case conviction seems to fit your usage of the word faith. When you say faith, I'll think conviction if that is alright with you.

The testimony of the first apostles was not based on faith, but on first hand experience. Unlike those of other religions who die for what they believe, the apostles were willing to die for what they knew pertaining to the resurrection of Jesus.

Sure they knew what they knew. Unlike the rest of us who must have faith in their claims. However I'm not good at having faith in people I didn't know. I've enough trouble having faith in people I do know.

Not in the way they are used in the Bible. The Bible says that faith is the substance of what we hope for, the evidence of things unseen. (Heb. 11:1) Faith is believing in what God can do. Hope is believing that God will do what He has promised. We have hope in both our own resurrection from the dead and what the Bible calls, "the blessed hope" which is the 2nd coming of Christ. Hope is rooted in faith. Faith is believing that Jesus was raised from the dead and that the His claims and indeed all of the claims of Scripture are vindicated in His resurrection. The hope we have in His promises is rooted in what He has already done. We can hope in the promise of our own resurrection because Jesus was resurrected.

Ok, "hope" for because you don't know the truth of the matter. One's lack of knowledge necessitates hope. Seems to support my original thinking.

The evidence of things unseen.... What does that even mean?

Maybe it means something one imagines to be true but has no supporting evidence?

Obviously if you had been there and seen the resurrection you would need faith/hope the event occurred, you have knowledge of it and no one could tell you different.

[Nakosis]

Faith requires action. God's not going to make you do it.

Sounds good to me. If you don't act on your faith/convictions then one really doesn't have faith. They are just given lip service.

If you say you have faith in a teacher but then don't act according to their teaching you are just trying to fool the teacher.

[Guest shiloh357]

Knowledge is based on evidence. Faith is necessary because of what you don't know. There's a balance here knowledge and faith. Knowledge/evidence may give cause for your faith however knowledge/experience should replace faith so there is less need for it. Ignorance is not a crime, it's a reality. One needs faith in a teacher because of their own ignorance, not because of what they know.

Faith is always based in knowledge from a biblical use of the term. God does not ask us believe in Him from a standpoint of ignorance. He does not ask for blind faith. He always provides evidence. Biblical faith is never blind and never operates from a standpoing of ignorance.

Knowledge does not replace faith. Proof replaces faith. We have faith in the promises relating to the 2nd coming of Chrsit. It is rooted in our knowledge of His resurrection and ascension.

I think a better translation of the Greek word pistis (usually translated to faith) is "conviction". An old Greek friend of mine once told me "veneration" was a better understanding. In any case conviction seems to fit your usage of the word faith. When you say faith, I'll think conviction if that is alright with you.

Neither of those words will do. "Conviction" refers to one's opinion. Veneration refers to worship, not faith. So no, faith is faith. Faith is the assurance of what we hope for.

Sure they knew what they knew. Unlike the rest of us who must have faith in their claims. However I'm not good at having faith in people I didn't know. I've enough trouble having faith in people I do know.

The problem is that we are not simply trusting in their claims, but the historical evidence that supports their claims. If they should not be trusted, the onus is on the skeptic to demonstrate evidentiarily that the apostles have a lack of credibility that demands their claims be treated as suspect.

Ok, "hope" for because you don't know the truth of the matter. One's lack of knowledge necessitates hope. Seems to support my original thinking.

Not hardly. Our hope is rooted in faith, which is rooted in credible, objective evidence. Again, it does not exist as wishful thinking.

The evidence of things unseen.... What does that even mean?

Maybe it means something one imagines to be true but has no supporting evidence?

Well you need to understand it in the light of the entire verse and the verses that follow. The writer of Hebrews explains in the verses what He means by giving various examples.

Faith is the substance (the basis or foundation) of what we hope for. The objects of our faith are related to the blessings of our own resurrection and future with God in eternity. It is the confident assurance of what we cannot see. We have confident assurance in the promises of God and that confidence is rooted in the demonstration of God's faithfulnes to those who trusted him as is seen in the remainder of the chapter.

Obviously if you had been there and seen the resurrection you would need faith/hope the event occurred, you have knowledge of it and no one could tell you different.

That is true. But notice that we are not relying on men who died for a belief or for a story they made up. Their claims do not give us the option of seeing them as hopeful fools putting trust in a misguided belief. Their testimonly was based on what the claimed to experience first hand, and they were willing to undergo torture and even face death for their claims. The nature of their testimony leaves us with two options: either they were lying or they were telling the truth.

There was absotutely no incentive for them to make up the story. After Jesus' resurrection, they were hiding for their lives. They feared, and rightly so, that they would suffer the same fate if they were even seen on the street. If anything, they sought to become invisible. They had every reason to remain hidden until everything blew over and to live the rest of their lives in shame and obscurity. Something changed them. Something happened to them to make them unafraid of the worst their enemies could throw at them. They made a 180 degree change from being cowards in hiding to men who would undergo imprisonment, torture and death and even count such things as a badge of honor for the sake of their Lord.

Their message was that Jesus is alive, and they are witnesses to that fact. For 40 days after his resurrection, they saw Him, touched Him, ate with Him, and saw Him taken into Heaven. They claimed to be witnesses and there was no one able to refute their testimony. Nearly all of the apostles were martyred for their testimony. The only not killed was John who lived the rest of His live in prison/exile on Patmos.

So the testimony that we have is from men who were willing to die for what they knew to be true. No one dies for a lie, especially if they are the ones who made it up. To argue otherwise is the height of irrationality.

[Nakosis]

Would you lay your hand on someone to heal them of a sickness? Probably not, why? Because you don't have faith in yourself because you don't believe you can.

Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Christians have faith because it's what we believe is to be true and come by hearing the word of God. The word of God has the things hoped for.

Sorry, grabbed part of your post, hope you don't mind.

If I weren't to try something it's because of not having faith in the person who told me something was possible. If I had reason to believe that person, I'd probably would try it. What do I know, it might work. So just enough faith is necessary to give it a try. If it works, then you have even more reason to trust the person who told you it was possible. If it doesn't, less reason to trust the person.

Yes hearing others witness about their experience give a person conviction. Gives them a willingness to try to give an idea a chance. Multi-level marketing uses this principle to great success.

[Nakosis]

OK, what is your specific objection to the Christian faith, given you respect Jesus?

By Christian faith I take it you mean the Christian religion.

Christian ideology is a belief about God developed by other men/women such as yourself based on a interpretation of the gospels. Even that interpretation is varied among the different Christian denominations. Those who know of what they speak should speak with one voice should they not? This is not the case with Christianity. Christianity speaks with many voices. Shouldn't that alone be a cause to question?

Christians claim the authority of Jesus in support of their beliefs. However I wonder sometimes if Jesus would actually claim responsibility for those beliefs.

So you object to the Christian faith on the basis of lack of consensus between Christians? I find this difficult for two reasons

1 - that we really do have a large degree of consensus on the major issues

2 - that Christianity should be examined on it's merits (historical validation of the bible and claims of Jesus) rather than on Christians

Candice

No not consensus. Consensus just means you've gotten a majority to agree one way or the other. That doesn't mean the majority is right and the minority is wrong. Something shouldn't accepted as true because that is what a majority believe. It should be true because it is true despite what any number of people say. That something is true should be self-evident to whomever evaluates it. It should need agreement/consensus.

Sorry that's me not you. I don't mean to being telling you what you should do. I personally am not going to accept something based on what the majority say. I'm just telling my reasons. You of course have your own for accepting what you don't or not accepting.

I don't want to be too mean here but just so you understand where I'm coming from. I don't really see much connection between Christianity and Jesus. Christianity uses Jesus as an icon from which to gets its authority. So I don't have a problem with what Jesus taught, what is in the gospels. My problem is the assumption of authority that Christianity has over them.

So yes Christianity has to stand on it's own merits. Not the merits of Jesus. Christians certainly have to stand own their own merits, not the merits of Jesus.

Just to understand, any issues I have are not with Jesus.

[Nakosis]

Faith is always based in knowledge from a biblical use of the term. God does not ask us believe in Him from a standpoint of ignorance. He does not ask for blind faith. He always provides evidence. Biblical faith is never blind and never operates from a standpoing of ignorance.

Knowledge of what? Personal experience? I'm all for personal experience. What is the source of your knowledge?

Knowledge does not replace faith. Proof replaces faith. We have faith in the promises relating to the 2nd coming of Chrsit. It is rooted in our knowledge of His resurrection and ascension.

Proof, something you experience from yourself. Proof provides knowledge doesn't it?

Neither of those words will do. "Conviction" refers to one's opinion. Veneration refers to worship, not faith. So no, faith is faith. Faith is the assurance of what we hope for.

Checking the Thayer’s lexicon "pistis" means “conviction of the truth of anything.” Besides aren't you referring to your opinion here? Why would you have faith in something you have no opinion ion?

The problem is that we are not simply trusting in their claims, but the historical evidence that supports their claims. If they should not be trusted, the onus is on the skeptic to demonstrate evidentiarily that the apostles have a lack of credibility that demands their claims be treated as suspect.

So do you usually trust the claims of people you don't know? I'm not saying you should distrust them but why trust the claims of someone you've never met? Sure try something out, if it works for you great but then your trust comes from your personal experience, not some person you never met. People are way too trusting of others. I think the internet shows us that.

I mean I have no reason to trust you or you I, true? Just I don't really know you. You maybe a great person maybe on something unimportant I'll give you some benefit of the doubt. However if you make some claim about truth, I'm going to check it out, no offense. I'd expect you to do the same.

Not hardly. Our hope is rooted in faith, which is rooted in credible, objective evidence. Again, it does not exist as wishful thinking.

Great, knowledge or proof if you prefer. That's all I'm saying.

Well you need to understand it in the light of the entire verse and the verses that follow. The writer of Hebrews explains in the verses what He means by giving various examples.

Faith is the substance (the basis or foundation) of what we hope for. The objects of our faith are related to the blessings of our own resurrection and future with God in eternity. It is the confident assurance of what we cannot see. We have confident assurance in the promises of God and that confidence is rooted in the demonstration of God's faithfulnes to those who trusted him as is seen in the remainder of the chapter.

Confident because of proof or because of what someone else claims? If you got proof, you got proof. I just see don't a need for faith for something you have proof of.

That is true. But notice that we are not relying on men who died for a belief or for a story they made up. Their claims do not give us the option of seeing them as hopeful fools putting trust in a misguided belief. Their testimonly was based on what the claimed to experience first hand, and they were willing to undergo torture and even face death for their claims. The nature of their testimony leaves us with two options: either they were lying or they were telling the truth.

Or they believe they were telling the truth. Memory is not that reliable. I am often very certain one thing or another happen a certain way only to find later it didn't. People can be talked into seeing something they didn't and convince they didn't see something they did. Why should these Apostles be any different?

There was absotutely no incentive for them to make up the story. After Jesus' resurrection, they were hiding for their lives. They feared, and rightly so, that they would suffer the same fate if they were even seen on the street. If anything, they sought to become invisible. They had every reason to remain hidden until everything blew over and to live the rest of their lives in shame and obscurity. Something changed them. Something happened to them to make them unafraid of the worst their enemies could throw at them. They made a 180 degree change from being cowards in hiding to men who would undergo imprisonment, torture and death and even count such things as a badge of honor for the sake of their Lord.

Their message was that Jesus is alive, and they are witnesses to that fact. For 40 days after his resurrection, they saw Him, touched Him, ate with Him, and saw Him taken into Heaven. They claimed to be witnesses and there was no one able to refute their testimony. Nearly all of the apostles were martyred for their testimony. The only not killed was John who lived the rest of His live in prison/exile on Patmos.

So the testimony that we have is from men who were willing to die for what they knew to be true. No one dies for a lie, especially if they are the ones who made it up. To argue otherwise is the height of irrationality.

People die for what they believe is true all the time. It doesn't make it true, it only means they believe in the truth of it. That's what conviction does.

[nChrist]

Nakosis

So yes Christianity has to stand on it's own merits. Not the merits of Jesus. Christians certainly have to stand own their own merits, not the merits of Jesus.

Just to understand, any issues I have are not with Jesus.

Wrong, the central focus is on Jesus Christ, not us or other men. You are lost, so you definitely have an issue with Jesus Christ - not men. Men can't save you, and men have no righteousness of their own. Trust or faith in men gets you nothing. Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is the only thing that can save you, so ALL of your issues are with Jesus Christ - not men. The opposite of everything you said is TRUE. I don't stand on my merits, rather the merits of Jesus Christ. I could NEVER work hard enough or be good enough to be worthy of Salvation, and neither can any other man. Jesus Christ completed the work of Salvation most perfectly at the cross, and I have nothing worthy to add to His perfect sacrifice. All Glory goes to God and NONE to men.

Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

ALL of the issues you have are with Jesus Christ - not men. Arguing with men gets you NOTHING. Your acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour is the only thing that matters. He is the only one who can save you. You will be dealing with Jesus Christ sooner or later in one of two ways: 1) As your Lord and Saviour, 2) As your righteous judge who condemns you.

Romans 10:8-10 KJV But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If you physically die in your sins without Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, you will stand before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment to be condemned. You will believe in Him then, but it will be too late. This is why there won't be any atheists in hell. Just remember, all of your issues are with Jesus Christ - not men.