Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Scudbuddy]

My wife and I lived in San Antonio Texas for a year. During that time we attended First Assembly. A man broke out in a tongue and my wife gave an interpretation. After the service, a very distinguished man approached my wife and asked her if she grew up in an Arabic speaking home. She didn't, and so this man then asked the man if he did so. The man did not. This man was the mayor of Paris, Texas. His father was an oil man, and he grew up in Saudi Arabia much of his life. He told us that that man had spoke like he had grown up in the Middle East with an accent and all. And that my wife had interpreted perfectly what was said.

The friends of Neb who did this thing do not understand how the gifts work or how us simple christians work. I do not know whether it was faked in the service mentioned by Neb, or someone prophecied after someone else spoke in "tongues". I do know that a counterfeit speaks of the real. I do know of my own experiences. And I do know that the churches that do not practice the gifts are declining in size, and that their young people grow up wanting nothing to do with God. Besides the statistical facts proving this, I have been in their churches and spoke with their youth. They see no proof of God. Many of these kids had had their own "salvation experience" and knew the word very well. But they kept on waiting for God to prove Himself, and in their church, that wasn't about to happen.

The disaster that is happening in Cessationist churches is beginning to happen in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches because so many of them have begun to swallow the Logical Empirical Mindset coupled with a "Seeker Sensitive" theology. The gifts are rarely in play anymore in their churches. Their youth are saying the same thing, only faster because their church says they believe in the gifts, but they see little proof of them.

[johnP]

Scudbuddy.

I think you are coming close to emptying the word of it's power.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Rom 10:14-15.

There is a place for gifts but they do not constitute another way of salvation.

The word is the way of salvation not miracles.

johnp.

[larryt]

Scudbuddy.

I think you are coming close to emptying the word of it's power.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Rom 10:14-15.

There is a place for gifts but they do not constitute another way of salvation.

The word is the way of salvation not miracles.

johnp.

Jesus said the sign would FOLLOW them that believe. Believe what? The gospel. When the Gospel is not preached that which follows is not of God.

LT

[Scudbuddy]

Scudbuddy.

I think you are coming close to emptying the word of it's power.

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Rom 10:14-15.

There is a place for gifts but they do not constitute another way of salvation.

The word is the way of salvation not miracles.

johnp.

No brother. I have not emptied the word of its power. I happen to actually believe what the word says in its entirety. When the WORD says "These signs shall follow those who believe....", I actually believe that. I don't start putting footnotes at the bottom of the text explaining that the earliest manuscripts did not have this passage. Cessationist like to put that footnote there.

When the WORD says "Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL..........." I actually believe it meant what it said in it's entirety. The GOSPEL is the good news. The good news is summed up in Luke 4:18 as to what it implies. The GOSPEL raises the dead, gives sight to the blind, binds up the broken hearted, and sets the captive free. It preaches the year of the Lords favor to the poor. But what it doesn't say is this. "The GOSPEL is accepting Jesus into your heart." Now believeing on Jesus is an accepted part of the GOSPEL, but using Jesus own words to describe it, I would have to leave it out. But since I read the WORD in its full context, I know that it is a part of the GOSPEL.

But when a Cessationist reads the WORD that he says he respects, he leaves out the part that is stated clearly. The POWER OF THE GOSPEL IN IT'S MANIFESTED FORM. The gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy and such.

You see, that is the problem between us. I actually believe the WORD, and you guys don't. You find every reason to bring impotence to this verse and that verse. You strip the WORD of it's power with your logic and reason, and then accuse us of being the ones who don't love the word enough. That we have poor doctrine.

Barna report shows that Pentecostals and Charismatics have a much higher score on understanding and practicing biblical orthodox doctrines. It also shows that Mormons have a higher score in that area than the people from denominations that practice Cessationism. The logic and reason that you all depend on has betrayed you with an Empirical study showing that it is you that have poor understanding and practice of the WORD. :x:

It is you that has emptied the WORD of it's power.

[Botz]

How are ya Botz,

Hope your sides aren

[larryt]

How are ya Botz,

Hope your sides aren

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey Botz,

Furthyermore, don

[larryt]

Neb,

I believe that demons no longer have the power to posses, and that all the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are gone. Including the ability of casting out demons. There is no longer the Gifts, therefore there is no longer demon possession or demon activity.

Where have you been? I can't believe you have been living in a cloistered abbey. Who or what is driving those in Iraq to behead people in the name of allah. Not to mention the attrocities in Sudan. Satan is not bound till the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that has already occured.

I have been reading through and had not posted because I had nothing to add that had not been said. I really would like to know where you got this statement from.

LT

I don't think you addressed this.

LT

[Scudbuddy]

Neb,

To do away with the gifts with I Cor.13 is one thing, but to do away with the Devils existence and role with it is much worse. You want biblical proof that you are wrong. I give you this. What biblical proof do you have to get rid of demonic possession and spiritual warfare. You see, we don't have to prove anything. The bible confirms their existence, and their role in peoples lives. But no where is there even the slightest suggestion that they were done away with. No where. So you offer the proof.

In the meantime, this is how silly it is to do away with any of the gifts. In Nebs case, he took Cessationism to its logical conclusion. If you do away with the gifts like discernment, you have to do away with what the gift discerns. Neb took it further than I have ever seen it taken by an Evangelical. Usually those who say these heretical things are part of the "Reason Group" who usually believe that the miracles are myths to begin with, along side the demonic. This is even worse though, because there is the evangelical statement of the need for Christ, yet the rejection of his actual words when it comes to the supernatural. It is justified after screwing with scripture till you get it to say what you want it to. And that is the danger to the evangelicals. This sort of thing will get more and more popular. This is why Barnas report makes so much sense.

Here is what Cessationist have done to the Gospel. Jesus confirmed the Word with Signs and Wonders. Paul stated that he did not preach with flowery words, but with power. All of the Apostles preached with Signs following, and then also did the generations thereafter. But somewhere along the way, less and less took place as men of reason took over.

Cessationist ask us to do something that we shouldn't have to do. Talk someone into the Kingdom. Jesus showed that His words had authority through the miracles. So did the early church. Signs and wonders bring sinners to the realization that it isn't just talk. That God is behind the words.

A few weeks ago, I started a thread to prove that very thing. "Pentecostalism revisited." I asked for stories about winning the lost on the streets. I opened it up to both Cessationist and Pentecostals. Not one story came from the latter. Not one. I did this on the Charisma forum before it shut down. 35 stories came out of that forum. Not one from the Cessationist side. And I debated with plenty of them. They had not one story of winning the lost. Statistically I knew that would happen. Their churches are stagnant, or even dying.

But I must say that most Pentecostals are following in their shoes in this country. We are seeing less of the miraculous in too many churches today. This is why Cessationism has had its' way in this country.

I adjure you brothers and sisters who believe that God is still God, and can do all things. Put God to the test again. Fast and pray for a move of God to take place in your church, and obey God when you see the need as if you actually believe that God can still heal the sick. And if you need a boost to your faith because your church is dead, find a place in your city that still actually believes while being Word centered. Watch out for the fakes, but watch even closer for the real. They are out there. And stop reading what the Unbelieving Believers are printing about your brothers in Christ. Heresy Hunting has made the church into a bunch of paranoids who worry more about devils than our great big GOD!

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Who or what is driving those in Iraq to behead people in the name of allah. Not to mention the attrocities in Sudan.

Hey larryt,

So you are saying that these people are all possessed by demons? Well I would say that it is their own misguided decisions.

Hey Scudbuddy,

To do away with the gifts with I Cor.13 is one thing, but to do away with the Devils existence and role with it is much worse

I have not said that the devil does not exist. I know he still exists and that he still tempts us just as he tempted Jesus but he and demons do not posses us.

I give you this. What biblical proof do you have to get rid of demonic possession and spiritual warfare.

The proof I have is that we don