Have the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased?

[Botz]

OH! YOU mean MONEY! Yes! MONEY IS A REAL EMPOWERING GIFT...

Ahem!....No I did not mean money as I am sure you can see.

There seems to be some confusion between the gifts and the fruit of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

1Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. ..........1Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

larryt...

And how do I get a college degree in the spiritual gifts? Is there a college/university that is teaching these? Can I buy them for money, and how much does it cost?

How about desiring them and asking G-d...then beginning to use what you are given...you might even get as excited as the disciples did.

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.....

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey guys. Give me a couple of weeks to get back to ya. I am doing some intensive studying.

Love in Christ

Ryan

[Botz]

Enjoy your studies Neb...and pace yourself well.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey People! Two more weeks and i will have finished my exams!!!

Then i will be able to reply to ya'll..

C you then

[His son]

The cessation of The Gifts Of The Holy Spirit, as spelled out in Scripture is nothing more that a false doctrine initiated by satan in an attempt to keep the believer from being the perfect man thoroughly equipped to carry out his call to evangelism even as it is described in Marks 16th chapter. There is no amount of rehtoric that will ever change one iota of God's Word on any issue.

[borntorebel]

The gifts of the holy spirit, as have been mentioned on this post, are for today's christians. One thing we must remember however is the warnings Paul gave to the Corinthians. We are not to focus on the gifts, but of the giver of those gifts. The Cornithians, much like the charismatic and pentecostal churches of today, focused too much on the gifts of the spirit. I mean they've gotten to the point (not all charismatics or pentecostals) that they think barking like dogs and writhing on the floor is from God. Many worship the gifts, not the giver of those gifts. We should desire these gifts, because they are helpful in building up the body of Christ. We must always remember though that God should be the primary focus of our thoughts and our lives, not the gifts. They are tools to be used by us for our christian walk. Those gifts are in operation because we understand in part and know in part because we aren't perfect and won't be until Christ returns and God's righteousness fills the earth. When that time comes, we won't need the gifts for we will also be perfect. That is the meaning of the passage that started this thread.

May God's peace and power be with you,

Ron

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Hey everyone, I am back.

This has been a very interesting debate. I have forgotten where we left off but I think we have covered a lot of ground. I would like to say that everyone has had great comments and ideas. I think I have pretty much said everything that I have to say but if anyone want

[Guest hubertdorm]

I read until page 8 and became exhausted, but I wanted to express my thoughts. Some of these points have been covered in certain degrees.

When I first started investigating for myself the evidence for and against the use of "miraculous" gifts today, I was amillennialist. This had a large affect on my reasoning, even though I didn't know it

1 Cor 13 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Coming from the conservative side, I've never heard the case made against the gift of knowledge, only tongues. This caused me suspicion, as I believe in consistent interpretation. If the tongues have ceased, so has knowledge, putting church scholars in an awkward position. Now, ability to understand scripture isn't necessarily the gift of knowledge, but I found it ironic that my instructors "knew" when the gifts would cease without it. But scripture is still clear that they would (or will) cease. And so the question remains, "when?"

1 Cor 13 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man I put childish ways behind me.

Another translation here is, "when that which is perfect has come..." The subject is gender neutral, suggesting a thing, and not a person. When a charismatic explained to me that, "that which is perfect" referred to Jesus, I was quick to point out that Jesus our Lord is not a "that," but a "he." The only other object besides Jesus Christ himself which could be considered perfect would be his holy word (James 1:25). Thus, this verse was obviously implying the completion of the Scriptures. This is what I assumed of course. Considering that the two reasons for the gifts were:

a) to affirm the truth of the gospel, and to

b) spread the gospel throughout the world,

the argument against their current existance was solid so far.

One breakthrough came when I became pre-millennialist. I no longer believed that the entire world would be destroyed, only renewed by fire at Christ's second coming. Now, "that which is perfect" could certainly be referring to the reign of Christ, the kingdom of heaven. It is not masculine, but neutral.

1 Cor 13 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

This verse had me in fits. Paul is describing the past (Paul's present) as though they were seeing through a mirror. Why my mind was in such distress was because I knew of another verse that spoke of a mirror, which seemed to tie in.

James 1:22-24 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

Here, James is comparing the very Word of God to a mirror. When a Christian reads the bible, he is looking at what God created him to be, and if he does not obey the Word, it's like he has forgotten what he looks like. Remember, in order for "that which is perfect" to imply the completed Scriptures, Paul's reference to the mirror would have to be describing the period before it. Yet, James is saying that the Word is still only like a mirror. Another passage to look at would be 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 which expands upon James' illustration.

1 Cor 13 Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Another evidence that Paul was referring to the established kingdom after Christ's second coming. Paul is suggesting that two things will happen when "that which is perfect" comes.

1) He shall know fully

2) He shall be fully known

Now, we only have revelation as God as given, through his scriptures. But when the dwelling of God is with men (Rev 21) all things shall be known. More than that, I believe we shall all know each other. No more screen names

1 Cor 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

This last piece held me back longer than any of the above, and here is why:

Hebrews 11 NOw faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Based on these two verses, I concluded that both faith and hope cease to exist, or at least cease in necessity when Christ comes. Why? When Jesus returns and we see him, we can no longer hold faith in him, nor hope in him. But remember Paul's words that faith, hope and love remain after "that which is perfect." If "that which is perfect" referred to Jesus' 2nd coming, why is Paul saying that faith and hope still exist? In this light, faith and hope are just as "childish" and temporary as the other gifts. Only love would endure forever because God is love. Obviously then, it seemed to me, the gifts ceased at the completion of the inspired word (that which is perfect), and currently we abide in faith and hope and love. Then both faith and hope will cease after Jesus returns.

It makes good logic doesn't it? But there were some problems, which I acknowledged only after reading "Clarke's Commentary" Vol. 6* (Romans-Revelation), part of which I will post below

Some say love is the greatest because it remains thoughout eternity, whereas faith and hope proceed only through life; hence we say that there faith is lost in sight, and hope in fruition. But does the apostle say so? Or does any man inspired by God say so? I believe not. Faith and hope will as necessarily enter into eternal glory as love will. The perfections of God are absolute in their nature, infinite in number, and eternal in their duration. However high, glorious, or sublime the soul may be in that eternal state, it will ever, in respect to God, be limited in its powers, and must be improved and expanded by the communications of the supreme being. Hence it will have infinite glories in the nature of God to apprehend by faith, to anticipate by hope, and enjoy by love.

Clarke, Adam. Clarke's Commentary.Volume 6*, pg 272.

*Book binding is engraved with the Roman numeral VI, which is 6. However the copywrite information lists this as Volume II, perhaps meaning Volume 2 or even still, 11.

Edited December 8, 2004 by hubertdorm

[Guest hubertdorm]

1 Cor 12 Eagerly desire the greater gifts.

1 Cor 14 Follow the ways of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy... Therefore my brothers, be eager to prophecy and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

One confusion I used to have were the instructions from Paul concerning spiritual gifts. Why would one eagerly desire something that was supposed to cease soon anyway? How could one desire a different gift from the one he had been given? You see, from what I had been taught was that the Holy Spirit would administer a gift only directly (Pentecost and Cornelius) and that this happened only twice, or by the laying on of hands (Samaria; John's Disciples). Obviously, the apostle's of our Lord are no longer on this earth, thus leaving only the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which, as I had been led to believe, happened only twice. Of course, you know how doctrines overlap, and this was part of a baptism study. Anywho..

The problem with the verses above is that they suggested that a person could actually receive desired gifts, and that the fullness of the individual gift was not realized at the first sign. That is, just because a person spoke in tongues at the entering of the Holy Spirit did not disqualify them from receiving other gifts later on.

James 1 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

If God gave me wisdom, would that be the gift of wisdom? I certainly think so. Though, this might also be interpreted to mean wisdom concerning something. In any case, God gives freely when we ask if we do not doubt and if we "remain in me and my words remain in you (John 15)."

It seems to me that anyone who received the Holy Spirit (that is born again) can receive the gifts God has if he askes for it.

[Guest idied2]

Perfection is the SPIRIT of GOD and CHRIST JESUS. Imperfection is the spirit of man.

Heb 6:1

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

But now even the elementary principles are up for debate. The word believe has been reduced to mouth service. Worship is what you want to do for HIM. Not what HE asked you to do.

Ga 3:3

Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh

Eph 4:13

till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

Heb 9:11

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.

Heb 12:23

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Mt 5:48

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Being CHRIST like is PERFECTION

In CHRIST JESUS