oh hmm evolution

[MorningGlory]

In Islam “The Believers are but a single Brotherhood” (Al-Hujurat 49:10), and “Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (Surah 98:6)

The Bible also refers to Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ, and before the Quran was written the Bible said: “For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness” (2 Cor. 6:14).

That said, I'm happy to be your friend, but as a true friend I will not shrink from telling you the truth, and that truth is that you're greatly deceived by the "best of all deceivers" and I cannot let you spread that deceit unchecked, so we may be talking quite a bit here in the next little while.

You have come up close and personal into the face of true islam, OES......it's not a religion, after all, it's a movement. A movement started by satan himself, predicated upon and practiced by deceit. Remember, satan IS the father of lies.

[Guest]

Ooooh, this is horrible. Is there a religion like that in the world?!

There Is One Forming Up

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:23

Blaspheming The Holy Name Of Jesus

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear. Revelation 13:4-9

But Jesus Will Deal With This Worm And With All His Willing Slaves

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

Precious Muslim Won't You Believe In The LORD Jesus Christ

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:27-30

And Be Set Free Before It Is To Late

____________

Your post looks tiny although it contains a big amount of accusations and beyond them, of course, more and more.

You

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48

Alone

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Wll Stand Or Fall

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

On Your Choice, Be Wise And Be Blessed Beloved

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

____________

There is no one sole word here is right, no one slight word is right.

Dear Sinner, The WORD Of God

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:9-10

Is God, The SON

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:11-14

And He Will Set

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29

The Slaves Free

____________

Two simple questions for you before replying to this false accusation from non Muslim, ignorant, unauthorized, cheap, anti Islam sites:

Wheither You Will Believe

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:35-36(a)

Or Not

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b)

That Is The ONLY Question, Dear One

___________

Why do you read about Islam? If I replied to you with strong evidence, will you follow the right path (Are you searching for the truth?)?

Sinner Did You Not Hear, The Right Path

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Is The Only Path

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:7-11

To The Father

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 1 John 2:21-26

And Freedom

____________

Thanks, brother (we are brothers and will always be In Sha Allah)

Dear One Believe

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

And Be

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:26-28

Freed Beloved

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Love, Joe

[coelacanth]

I've found the truth "Thy Word is Truth" (John 17:17).

This is absolutely correct but may I expound upon this statement a bit? What I have found is bigger even than this, for Christ is the word, and Christ is the truth. He even told us that this is who He is, among other descriptions. As far as I can see there is no other truth than Christ and all things that claim to be truth must be viewed through Christ, who is the truth, and Gods word to us, to see if that truth is in fact truth or something else.

Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.

Additionally John told us:

In the beginning the Word already existed.

The Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

2 He existed in the beginning with God.

3 God created everything through him,

and nothing was created except through him.

4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,

and his life brought light to everyone.

5 The light shines in the darkness,

and the darkness can never extinguish it.

So Christ is the word through whom all creation was made. Now we know that Christ Jesus and the Father are one. This is one of the great paradoxical mysteries of what we know is true, Christ is the word, the father, the spirit, the creator, the savior, the son, etc. all in one.

Praise to Christ the Son and God the Father!!

Sorry for my rant but I just felt the need to expound upon your statement.

[Happy Forever]

Hello Happy Forever,

I’m curious about a number of things you’ve mentioned so far.

Muhammad said, “Expert, you are regarded to stand on nothing until you live according to Injil (gospel), Taurat (Torah), and whatever send to you by your God” (Surah 5: 68).

Hello brother,

The Munificent Quran is the words of Allah not Muhammad. Muhammad is just a messenger of Allah sent by Allah to deliver His message. The sayings of prophet Muhammad is called Hadith.

What you quote is false.

This is the translation of Ayah [5:68]:

Allah says: "Say, “O people of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord.” And indeed what has been sent down to you (The prophet Muhammad) from your Lord will definitely increase many of them in ordinance and disbelief, so do not feel sad for the disbelieving people.(68) Surely the ones who have believed and the ones who have guided (Yahood), and the SabîÉûn, (Sabaeans) and the Nasara, whoever has believed in Allah and the Last Day and done righteousness, then no fear will be on them, nor will they grieve.(69)" [5:68/69]

The meaning: Allah orders His prophet Muuhammad to say to the people of the book (Whom Allah sent to them His books 'Yahood and Nassara') to keep up the Turah and Injeel the books of Allah.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that who have believed in Him from Yahood and Nassara are be saved in the Day of Judgment.

Now the question is: Are you from Yahood? Are you from Nassara? Is your book the Injeel? Is your book the Turah?

Likewise, you have Haddiths which picture Muhammad placing the Torah on a pillow and bowing down to it, don’t you?

Didn't you see Muslims praying?!

We Muslims don't bow or kneel to anything or anyone but to Allah The One True God.

Prophet Muhammad was unlattered and Quran is the revelation of Allah.

Second, I find it interesting that you’re intent on calling Christians here ‘brother’, since as a Muslim you’re not even permitted to call us ‘friend’: “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people” (Surah 5:51).

This is false words, not in Quran!

"O you who have believed, do not take to yourselves the Jews and the Nasara (Christians) as patrons; some of them are patrons to some (others). And whoever of you patronizes them, then surely he is one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.(51)Those in whose heart is a disease― thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His Will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts. (52)"

The meaning: Allah addresses the believers not to take Yahood and Nassara as patrons at the state of war. This Ayah provides political rules not social rules.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that those who take them as patrons are those whose hearts are sick, they have inner fear (because of their weak belief) and afraid to lose war and be defeated.

Allah says that victory is from Him.

The Ayah which explains how to treat people of the book is:

"8. Allah does not forbid you (as regards) the ones who have not fought you on account of the religion and have not driven you out of your residences that you should be benign to them and be equitable towards them; surely Allah loves the equitable.(8) Surely Allah only forbids you as to the ones who have fought you on account of the religion, and driven you out of your homes, and backed (others) in driving you out, that you should patronize them;and whoever patronizes them, then those are they who are the unjust.(9) [60:8/9]

To check yourself:

"أهل الكتاب": Ahl Al Kitab: people of the book. Ahl means people and relative and owner. Al Kitab means the book.

"أولياء/يتولى": Yatawala/ Awliyaa: patronize/ patronizers.

The two words in bold is wrong translation. Expert in Arabic is Khabir خبير. Friend is Sadiq صديق.

I gave you the words with the transliteration and the Arabic meaning to check yourself from any Arabic dictionary.

the enforcement of dhimmihood (second class citizen) status of all non-Muslims, who would then not only have to pay the Jizya but must do so willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Do you know what is the meaning of Zimmah?

Zimmah means responsibility. So any non Muslim in a muslim country is under the responsibilty and protection of Muslims no one can attack or hurt him.

According to the law of Allah, Islam is the law of the Muslim country but the non Muslims have their own different rules, should they follow the law and Sharia of Islam?

No, so this treatment with non Muslim to protect their own law and culture and religion and protect them against any enemy as they don't participate in war, in return, they should admit the Islam authority of the state by paying Jizya.

What is Jizya?

jizya means payment in return for protecting them and to be paid to the state and will return to the state. It is a specific amount of money paid by the young men only yearly. For example 100 pounds for every non Muslim young man.

According to Sharia (Islam law), a Muslim (the rich) should pay the annual Zakat (specific percentage of his money '2.5%') paid to the state to be to the poor and need regardless of their religion.

Non Muslims don't pay Zakat because they are not obliged to follow the law of Islam (Sharia) concerning Prayer, Zakat, Fasting accroding to Zimmah contract.

So the non Muslim rich is asked to pay Jizya which is a tiny amount of money under the capability of the poor and the rich equally.

Unfortunately this law is not applied in many Muslim countries.

If you want to read more about Zimmah, read about the opening of Egypt by Omar ibnul Khattab.

are you calling us brothers for the same reason Muhammad formed the Truce of Hudaibiya, which was to fool the enemy into a peace treaty until such time as the Islamic forces were strong enough to defeat them in combat?

Slunder. This treaty was an opening and mercy but the believers knew that later. Prophet Muhammad and his followers wanted to do pilgrimage (Hij) so they went to Mecca without weapons seeking the face of Allah. Meccans prevented them and after alot of negotiations, they decided to make a treaty with prophet Muhammad to avoid war.

In this treaty, Muslims will not enter Mecca this year and will be allowed to pilgrim next year and Meccans will leave the city for Muslims till they finish the pilgrimage.

No war between them for ten years.

No party conquer another party.

And after few years, Mecca broke the treaty and conquered Khoza'a and killed Muslim citizens then the promise of Allah achieved when Muslims were prepared to open Mecca and finally Mecca the city of The Holy Mosque and in which Muhammd was born was opened without sheding blood and turned to Islam.

"And say, “The Truth has come and untruth has expired; surely the untruth has been ever-expiring" [17:81]

If your answer is ‘no’, do you answer in the negative according to the doctrine of Taqiyya, which enables the Muslim to lie in order to gain advantage over an enemy?

This is the first time to hear about this Taqqiya, may be you mean this Hadith:

Ammar ibn Yassir was among the first Muslims in Mecca and his family. They were a poor Mulsim family. They were tortured by Meccans as a deterrance to who think of turning to Islam. All his family were tortured till death except him. Idolators told him "if you want to be released, swear Muhammad and praise our idol gods". He did and hurried to the messenger of Allah. Prophet Muhammd asked him "How is your heart? He said "tranquiled with belief" Muhammad said: "If they turned, do the same".

Basically, since you follow after the example of a deity which self-identifies as the “best of deceivers" (Sura 3:54)

54. And they schemed, and Allah schemed, and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers. (54). As Allah said, “O Isa (Jesus), surely I am taking you up to Me, and I am raising you up to Me, and I am purifying you of the ones who have disbelieved. And I am making the ones who have closely followed you above the ones who have disbelieved until the Day of the Resurrection. Thereafter to Me will be your return; so I will judge between you as to whatever you used to differ in.(55) [3:54/55]

[Fez]

Hello Happy Forever,

I’m curious about a number of things you’ve mentioned so far.

Muhammad said, “Expert, you are regarded to stand on nothing until you live according to Injil (gospel), Taurat (Torah), and whatever send to you by your God” (Surah 5: 68).

Hello brother,

The Munificent Quran is the words of Allah not Muhammad. Muhammad is just a messenger of Allah sent by Allah to deliver His message. The sayings of prophet Muhammad is called Hadith.

What you quote is false.

This is the translation of Ayah [5:68]:

Allah says: "Say, “O people of the Book, you are up to nothing until you keep up the Tawrah and the Injil and whatever has been sent to you from your Lord.” And indeed what has been sent down to you (The prophet Muhammad) from your Lord will definitely increase many of them in ordinance and disbelief, so do not feel sad for the disbelieving people.(68) Surely the ones who have believed and the ones who have guided (Yahood), and the SabîÉûn, (Sabaeans) and the Nasara, whoever has believed in Allah and the Last Day and done righteousness, then no fear will be on them, nor will they grieve.(69)" [5:68/69]

The meaning: Allah orders His prophet Muuhammad to say to the people of the book (Whom Allah sent to them His books 'Yahood and Nassara') to keep up the Turah and Injeel the books of Allah.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that who have believed in Him from Yahood and Nassara are be saved in the Day of Judgment.

Now the question is: Are you from Yahood? Are you from Nassara? Is your book the Injeel? Is your book the Turah?

Likewise, you have Haddiths which picture Muhammad placing the Torah on a pillow and bowing down to it, don’t you?

Didn't you see Muslims praying?!

We Muslims don't bow or kneel to anything or anyone but to Allah The One True God.

Prophet Muhammad was unlattered and Quran is the revelation of Allah.

Second, I find it interesting that you’re intent on calling Christians here ‘brother’, since as a Muslim you’re not even permitted to call us ‘friend’: “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people” (Surah 5:51).

This is false words, not in Quran!

"O you who have believed, do not take to yourselves the Jews and the Nasara (Christians) as patrons; some of them are patrons to some (others). And whoever of you patronizes them, then surely he is one of them. Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.(51)Those in whose heart is a disease― thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His Will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts. (52)"

The meaning: Allah addresses the believers not to take Yahood and Nassara as patrons at the state of war. This Ayah provides political rules not social rules.

In the second Ayah, Allah says that those who take them as patrons are those whose hearts are sick, they have inner fear (because of their weak belief) and afraid to lose war and be defeated.

Allah says that victory is from Him.

The Ayah which explains how to treat people of the book is:

"8. Allah does not forbid you (as regards) the ones who have not fought you on account of the religion and have not driven you out of your residences that you should be benign to them and be equitable towards them; surely Allah loves the equitable.(8) Surely Allah only forbids you as to the ones who have fought you on account of the religion, and driven you out of your homes, and backed (others) in driving you out, that you should patronize them;and whoever patronizes them, then those are they who are the unjust.(9) [60:8/9]

To check yourself:

"أهل الكتاب": Ahl Al Kitab: people of the book. Ahl means people and relative and owner. Al Kitab means the book.

"أولياء/يتولى": Yatawala/ Awliyaa: patronize/ patronizers.

The two words in bold is wrong translation. Expert in Arabic is Khabir خبير. Friend is Sadiq صديق.

I gave you the words with the transliteration and the Arabic meaning to check yourself from any Arabic dictionary.

the enforcement of dhimmihood (second class citizen) status of all non-Muslims, who would then not only have to pay the Jizya but must do so willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Do you know what is the meaning of Zimmah?

Zimmah means responsibility. So any non Muslim in a muslim country is under the responsibilty and protection of Muslims no one can attack or hurt him.

According to the law of Allah, Islam is the law of the Muslim country but the non Muslims have their own different rules, should they follow the law and Sharia of Islam?

No, so this treatment with non Muslim to protect their own law and culture and religion and protect them against any enemy as they don't participate in war, in return, they should admit the Islam authority of the state by paying Jizya.

What is Jizya?

jizya means payment in return for protecting them and to be paid to the state and will return to the state. It is a specific amount of money paid by the young men only yearly. For example 100 pounds for every non Muslim young man.

According to Sharia (Islam law), a Muslim (the rich) should pay the annual Zakat (specific percentage of his money '2.5%') paid to the state to be to the poor and need regardless of their religion.

Non Muslims don't pay Zakat because they are not obliged to follow the law of Islam (Sharia) concerning Prayer, Zakat, Fasting accroding to Zimmah contract.

So the non Muslim rich is asked to pay Jizya which is a tiny amount of money under the capability of the poor and the rich equally.

Unfortunately this law is not applied in many Muslim countries.

If you want to read more about Zimmah, read about the opening of Egypt by Omar ibnul Khattab.

are you calling us brothers for the same reason Muhammad formed the Truce of Hudaibiya, which was to fool the enemy into a peace treaty until such time as the Islamic forces were strong enough to defeat them in combat?

Slunder. This treaty was an opening and mercy but the believers knew that later. Prophet Muhammad and his followers wanted to do pilgrimage (Hij) so they went to Mecca without weapons seeking the face of Allah. Meccans prevented them and after alot of negotiations, they decided to make a treaty with prophet Muhammad to avoid war.

In this treaty, Muslims will not enter Mecca this year and will be allowed to pilgrim next year and Meccans will leave the city for Muslims till they finish the pilgrimage.

No war between them for ten years.

No party conquer another party.

And after few years, Mecca broke the treaty and conquered Khoza'a and killed Muslim citizens then the promise of Allah achieved when Muslims were prepared to open Mecca and finally Mecca the city of The Holy Mosque and in which Muhammd was born was opened without sheding blood and turned to Islam.

"And say, “The Truth has come and untruth has expired; surely the untruth has been ever-expiring" [17:81]

If your answer is ‘no’, do you answer in the negative according to the doctrine of Taqiyya, which enables the Muslim to lie in order to gain advantage over an enemy?

This is the first time to hear about this Taqqiya, may be you mean this Hadith:

Ammar ibn Yassir was among the first Muslims in Mecca and his family. They were a poor Mulsim family. They were tortured by Meccans as a deterrance to who think of turning to Islam. All his family were tortured till death except him. Idolators told him "if you want to be released, swear Muhammad and praise our idol gods". He did and hurried to the messenger of Allah. Prophet Muhammd asked him "How is your heart? He said "tranquiled with belief" Muhammad said: "If they turned, do the same".

Basically, since you follow after the example of a deity which self-identifies as the “best of deceivers" (Sura 3:54)

54. And they schemed, and Allah schemed, and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers. (54). As Allah said, “O Isa (Jesus), surely I am taking you up to Me, and I am raising you up to Me, and I am purifying you of the ones who have disbelieved. And I am making the ones who have closely followed you above the ones who have disbelieved until the Day of the Resurrection. Thereafter to Me will be your return; so I will judge between you as to whatever you used to differ in.(55) [3:54/55]

Jesus is King! Praise His Holy Name!

[Happy Forever]

What can you tell me about truth since the Hadith clearly outline the rules for deceit in the doctrine of Taqiyya as: "in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband" (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Hadith Number 6303)?

the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and narrates something good or says something good.”

Om Kalthum bint Oqba said that the messenger Muhammad permitted lie in three: in war and a man speaks to his wife in a way to please her and in reconciling between people".

The lie here is not the franck lie but to say the truth but not the whole truth. To mention the good thing and hide the bad thing and this is permitted only in the above three cases only.

You're on a Christian forum

I know and I hope I will be able to debate you in the next days.

By the way, why is it that one your profile your gender is listed as 'male' but to Joe a few pages back you signed a post:

Your sister,

Happy Forever

Thanks, brother (we are brothers and will always be In Sha Allah)

I am a Muslim girl. In Arabic, we can say brothers referring to a male and a female. I don't know in English and I don't want to spot on this. I didn't define my gender, it was defined automatically I guess.

In Islam “The Believers are but a single Brotherhood” (Al-Hujurat 49:10), and “Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (Surah 98:6)

Of course wrong translation.

“Verily The Believers are Brothers” (Al-Hujurat 49:10)

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (6) Those who have faith and do righteous deeds― they are the best of creatures. (7)" (98:6)

[Happy Forever]

Jesus is King! Praise His Holy Name!

Do you think by large-sized-red-colored statement you provide an evidence?

Show me an evidence, brother.

[Happy Forever]

Love, Joe

My good brother Joe,

I respect you fully and I wish to exchange our knowledge in a constructive way.

You quote me from your book and I read and see no suitable reply, no slight evidence, only weak human words.

I feel you act like the previous brother, as if you tell me "this is the truth because I say that, this is the truth because I quote that and make it bold and blue".

I am a human with a mind, penetrate my mind which I respect by evidence, any slight evidence that these words are not human but divine.

I have strong evidence, what do you have?

[Happy Forever]

Brothers and sisters,

I know I am a Muslim in a Christian forum and I respect you all. I wish to debate you civilly and respectfully to discover the truth.

All the best

[Dragoon]

Hello Happy Forever,

I’m curious about a number of things you’ve mentioned so far.

First of all, it would seem to me that you’re in an interesting position to be trying to claim that the Bible is human words, but that we are supposed to believe that you are in possession of actual inspired words of God, since the Quran (which is the very text that you claim are the inspired words of God) contradicts such an assertion.

Muhammad said, “Expert, you are regarded to stand on nothing until you live according to Injil {gospel), Taurat (Torah), and whatever send to you by your God” (Surah 5: 68). He went on to qualify, "And if thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book from before thee..." (Surah 10: 94).

Now, we both believe that God provides special revelation in the form of inspired words, so it’s not like think it's impossible that God could have provided inspired words in the form of a New Testament, and as we can see from the above Muhammad said that the Muslim must not only follow the previous inspired texts, but when in doubt must consult those who have been reading the book before them, which would be Jews and Christians.

If you were a good Muslim, then you’d have to obey as the inspired work commanded you and ask us Christians what has been revealed and we’d tell you that God has said that “the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist” (1 John 2:22), and since the Quran states that “No son did Allah beget” (Surah 23:91), then it is false according to its own criteria.

If you’d like to suggest that the Bible has been corrupted, the entire New Testament expect for 11 verses can be totally reconstructed within 150 years of Christ’s death from extra Biblical fragments. That’s hundreds of years before the penning of the Quran, which contained the commandment to ask those who have been reading the book before you. If any corruptions did occur, it would have been centuries before the charge to follow the texts and therefore such corruptions were either unknown to Muhammad or irrelevant to the commandment.

In either case, the charge to follow the instructions of the readers of the Ingil would remain.

Likewise, you have Haddiths which picture Muhammad placing the Torah on a pillow and bowing down to it, don’t you? Interesting that the Quran goes about contradicting that same Torah for which we have existing copies that predated Muhammad’s birth by centuries, at every point on which they overlap: http://thriceholy.net/contradictions.html#Abraham

It is a strange claim indeed that a truth could be truer than the a priori assumptions upon which the legitimacy of that truth is established, so your call to use logic is simply patently in defiance of the logical you claim to observe.

Second, I find it interesting that you’re intent on calling Christians here ‘brother’, since as a Muslim you’re not even permitted to call us ‘friend’: “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people” (Surah 5:51).

In fact, in every school of Islamic Jurisprudence, bar none, the establishment of Islamic hegemony over the world is taught as a necessity, as is the enforcement of dhimmihood (second class citizen) status of all non-Muslims, who would then not only have to pay the Jizya (tax) but must do so willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Under Shaira Law Dhimmi are not permitted to openly worship, and if they do so they forfeit their contract of protection and are no longer under the protection as having accepted the status as living as second class, willingly persecuted inferiors.

Since this is true of all schools of Islamic jurisprudence it simply begs the question, are you calling us brothers for the same reason Muhammad formed the Truce of Hudaibiya, which was to fool the enemy into a peace treaty until such time as the Islamic forces were strong enough to defeat them in combat?

If your answer is ‘no’, do you answer in the negative according to the doctrine of Taqiyya, which enables the Muslim to lie in order to gain advantage over an enemy?

Basically, since you follow after the example of a deity which self-identifies as the “best of deceivers" (Sura 3:54), an Islamic school of thought which advocates the relegation of all non-muslims to dhimmi status, and the treaty of Hudaibiya by Muhammad who is considered by all Muslims to be the best of human examples, and possibly the doctrine of Taqiyya, how could be assured that you’re telling us the truth in anything you say?

Ooooh, this is horrible. Is there a religion like that in the world?!

Your post looks tiny although it contains a big amount of accusations and beyond them, of course, more and more.

There is no one sole word here is right, no one slight word is right.

Two simple questions for you before replying to this false accusation from non Muslim, ignorant, unauthorized, cheap, anti Islam sites:

Why do you read about Islam? If I replied to you with strong evidence, will you follow the right path (Are you searching for the truth?)?

Thanks, brother (we are brothers and will always be In Sha Allah)

Asalaam Alaikum Happy.

Some simple questions for you

1) Were the Injil, Torat and Zaboor from God in their original form?

If so, then how can man pervert what is from God? Cannot God protect His own Words?

2) Why do you think the Injil, Torat and Zaboor are corrupted by the way?

3) Why do you not believe that Jesus son of Mary was not crucified?

Please also consider. As you say to OldEnglishSheepdog to beware of "non Muslim, ignorant, unauthorized, cheap, anti Islam" information, how much of your own information is flawed because it has come through Muslim eyes which do not understand what the Bible teaches?

Often God instructs us with the accusations we point at others.

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Also, before you ignore the comments about Muslim treatment of other religions in countries governed by Sharia, might I suggest you look into it (from more than just Muslim sources). I recently sat and had a long and pleasant conversation with an Arab Christian brother from Lebanon. He has lived and worked throughout the Middle East, and part of what he spoke of was the persecution of Christians there.