oh hmm evolution

[Dragoon]

This does not mean there are many different books. It means that the same book was reproduced many times.

If Muslims really "have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one"... that would mean that all 1.5 billion Muslims would have to share 1 book. I hope you can see why that statement is silly and makes me laugh

My Bible, and every Bible I've ever owned begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " (Book of Genesis 1:1)

Once again, I can only suggest that your sources are incorrect.

"If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure."

You mentioned earlier that one of your points against (what you falsely considered) Christianity was that "there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

If the Quran cannot be understood except by interpretation, then how is this different?

The interpretation is done by men who "take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

Does even the Arabic Quran have only the words that were given... or does it also include 'commentary' and 'interpretation'?

Running out of time tonight, but the basic point is that the Quran is wrong in this assertion. There were not 'many different bibles'. It seems that Arabic writers have made the same confusion you have, and assumed that 'many different copies' meant 'many different books' (vs 'many different copies of the same books').

You still may not get this as it appears to be a big language block for Arabic speakers.

Dragoon, this is such an excellent point I'd love to flesh it out just a pinch more - I hope that's OK with you.

First of all, not only is it simply fiction to suggest that there are no textual variants among the copies of the Quran that have been circulated over the centuries, but if there were no textual variants to the Quran it certainly would beg the question of why Uthman set to the task of burning all the textual variants.

But secondly, even if it were true, as Happy asserts, that there is only one origianl Quran and all of our English translations are not the Quran because by interpreting it it becomes lies - even if that were true then having this discussion in English would necessarily mean that Happy is guilty of this exact charge of lying about the Quran.

I've quoted from the Quran and Happy said it was a lie because it wasn't the Quran, of which there is one copy and it is in Arabic, then she proceeded to tell me what the Quran supposedly does say when translated INTO ENGLISH, and according to her interpretation. But here she is trying to tell us that she can convince us of the truth of a document that cannot be represented to us by either translated or interpreted, though she tries to employ both of those devices in contradiction with her own restriction against doing so.

If it really were so that there was only one Quran, no copies and it was only comprehensible in its untainted, original language, then you couldn't possibly convince any non-Arabic speaking person of its contents - they'd have to read the original, untranslated and uninterpreted.

If this is a standard the Muslim wants to set then they have to accept the limitations they're imposing upon their own system as well, which is clearly a cost they cannot afford.

Feel free to speak as the Spirit leads Brother.

I think non-native Arabic speakers are less adament on some of these points as well.

I've also read that the Kabbah contains Quranic text that does not match with the current Quran as well, but I'm afraid I've never been able to confirm that.

I have visited mosques and madrassehs in different non-Arabic countries now, and I find it interesting that even though they all say that there is only one Quran and no translations, they all have translations there for their adherents to read. Happy Forever pointed out the linguistic gymnastics used to say these aren't 'translation', but rather "translations of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran."

The Quran I have is actually titled "The Meaning of the Glorious Quran"... but if you look inside, it says "Translation by: Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall"!

I think in general, Muslims object to any translation of the Quran done by non-Muslims. I have no problem with that, as I would also question the Biblical transaltions done by non-Christians. But even within this, there is little agreement on which Quran is 'best'.

I have the Pickthal, which some Muslims consider best because it uses Shakespearian English and so sounds more 'holy'. Its hard even for native English speakers to understand though for exactly that reason.

[Dragoon]

Salaam and Salaam Happy,

I'm sorry you thought my laughing was intended to insult. It was not. I know that English is not your native language, and there is no shame in making small mistakes... especially when discussing complicated topics.

My laughter was meant in the spirit of two friends who realize that they are imperfect

Dear God,

Give us clear understanding of one another, despite our language and cultural barriers. Send your Spirit to us as well to guide us in understanding of your Word. I ask this in the name of your Son, Jesus Christ.

Amen.

I've merely demonstrated that your source of knowledge is wrong... which has implications for whether it can be considered 'from God'.

How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice.

With respect Happy, I was setting my opinion of what you wrote, which you stated was from your source of knowledge, the Quran. It is not the totality of the Quran, but what you wrote in that post can be demonstrated to be false

If I have misunderstood anything you wrote, please correct me in my understanding.

Check your bible, is it from Allah? Is it the words of Allah or human words?

So there are people between you and your god in order to know him and pray for him and know his religion?!

There must be Jesus in the relation between you and your Creator, there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it. And from people to people and generation to generation dependiing on trusting people and hardly imagine that any one dare to change the words of Allah.

What is your evidence in front of you if you search for the complete truth?

The written words in the Bible are God's words, but God breathed those Words through men, and it was men who touched ink to paper to write those words.

There are no people between God and mankind. You said you 'knew' Christianity', but there are obvious faults in your understanding.

No need for insult. Yes, you're right, I don't know Christianity, I know the true message of Messenger Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him which is "No God but Allah".

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. (Book of Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

There is only One God. Of that we are in agreement

This too was Isa's message.

Yet He also said that, "I and the Father are one" (Gospel of John 10:30) and accepted the worship of men.

If God tells me that He is One, and also tells me that Jesus is God, should I say to God that He cannot do this?

Is there anything that God cannot do?

You noted that you do not know Christianity.

You also said, "How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice."

Perhaps you should learn more about Christianity so you do not commit an injustice?

Not against me... but against God.

And you have to believe them! If someone seeing him face to face telling you that what he is saying now is revelation from god, will you believe him or say "Show me evidence, a miracle to believe you or else you are a liar"?

If some ink in some papers in front of you and someone tells you that this ink in that paper was written by people whom god breathed his words through them, will you believe him or say "Oh, this is worse, to believe the first liar is more logical".

We both have words on paper.

We both believe that those words are from God.

God has proven Himself to me, and has shown me the truth of His Words... so if some person or even an angel from heaven came and tried to give me a message different from that in scripture, I would call him a liar and condemn them.

This is not because I love logic or love myself.

I would do this because I love God and trust Him.

I have the evidence of God's revelation to me, His Holy Spirit, and His Word.

When you get right down to it, do you have anything more than the Quran?

Once again Happy, I must ask you.

Did God put the words you wrote to speak to me... or to you?

Can a person with an unclean heart come before God?

Insulting question to god. A creature comes before its creator? The creator is limited in place so you can come before or after him? This is impossible for The One True God The Creator of the heavens and the earth.

Yet even the purest man is still unclean in comparison to God, so for man to clean himself is impossible.

Would you consider a pig clean because he told you, "another pig licked me clean????"

Only God can clean a man. All of scripture points to this fulfillment of His word, the Lamb of God; Jesus of Nazareth.

If you think that you are unclean and your creator wants to clean you, why didn't he create you clean from the beginning?!

Let me teach you a little from the Bible, for there is much you do not understand.

God did create us clean in the beginning. So clean that we walked in God's presence (though God is Spirit).

So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them. (Book of Genesis 1:27)

But God gave man the ability to choose, which in Cristianity we often call 'free will', and man listened to Satan and turned away from God and sinned.

So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Book of Genesis 3:23-4)

Have you ever wondered why there is so much injustice, hate and violence in the world?

If God is perfect, and He made the world, then WHY is it not perfect???

Because man sinned and turned away from God.

We have unclean hearts, not because God is imperfect, but because all men have become unclen through Adam.

But God is perfect.

And He still loves us because He created us.

So yes.

Our Creator wants to clean us.

Have mercy on me, O God,

according to your unfailing love;

according to your great compassion

blot out my transgressions.

Wash away all my iniquity

and cleanse me from my sin.

(Book of Psalms 51:1-2 a psalm of King David)

[Dragoon]

The Injil for example has about 5,300 different surviving manuscripts (not all are complete) in Greek, with over 10,000 additional copies in Latin, and several thousand more in other languages.

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!.

We have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one.

You know that what is in your hand is words from different people as the papers claim and then translate these words of humans then lie with Allah by without shame and say it is god words!!

Do you know now how people can dare to change the words of Allah and made others and say they are his?

If you open any of your book, will find in the cover "words of god".

If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure.

You've written a lot of silly stuff here, and it may be because you don't understand the meaning of some words in English.

If I go to a printer to print the Quran, he prints as many COPIES as I ask for. There was one ORIGINAL COPY, but there are many COPIES of that original.

When I tell you that;

These are not 'different' Injils (Gospels/New Testaments), but faithful copies of the same one

We have the translation as well of course, but we have the original documents to check them against.... thousands of copies of the same original documents!.

This does not mean there are many different books. It means that the same book was reproduced many times.

If Muslims really "have only one, One book, one version, no copies, only one"... that would mean that all 1.5 billion Muslims would have to share 1 book. I hope you can see why that statement is silly and makes me laugh

My Bible, and every Bible I've ever owned begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " (Book of Genesis 1:1)

Once again, I can only suggest that your sources are incorrect.

No reason to laugh. Please no more insult, and don't break respect and you don't know Quran. (don't be unjust and judge through the eyes of others)

Yes, we have only one book, one version, no copies.

This is an example to explain:

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

If Hebrew is the original language of this context, for you, these two the original language and the translation are holy books words of god.

We Muslims, can do the same with any human article or book by writing the author name in the translation, but for The Munificent Quran is completely far from doing that.

Here in this miraculous Surah:

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ (١)

ٱلۡحَمۡدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ (٢) ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ (٣) مَـٰلِكِ يَوۡمِ ٱلدِّينِ (٤) إِيَّاكَ نَعۡبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسۡتَعِينُ (٥) ٱهۡدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٲطَ ٱلۡمُسۡتَقِيمَ (٦) صِرَٲطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنۡعَمۡتَ عَلَيۡهِمۡ غَيۡرِ ٱلۡمَغۡضُوبِ عَلَيۡهِمۡ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّينَ (٧)

is not the translation:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful (1)

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, (2) The Beneficent, the Merciful. (3) Owner of the Day of Judgment, (4) Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (5) Show us the straight path, (6) The path of those whom Thou hast favoured. Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. (7) [1:1/7]

The first one in Arabic is Quran the words of Allah, the second one is not Quran at all, but human words.

It is not the problem of my English but the problem that you don't know Quran and don't know Arabic.

Allah says: "He has been sending down upon you the Book with the Truth, sincerely (verifying) what was before it (Literally: between its two hands), and He sent down the Tawrah and the Injil (3)." [3:3]

In this Ayah, Allah says that He sent down the book (referring to The Quran). But Allah didn't give Jibril a book to handle it to Muhammad the unlattered. The Quran was being sent to Muhammad orally with some Ayats from time to tiime through out 23 years.

"Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it. (16) Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof. (17) And when We read it, follow thou the reading; (18)" [75:16/18]

So what is the meaning of the book?

The Book means the Quran, the spiritual words not the moral. So we have one Quran the Arabic recited by all Muslims in the same way. All those who keep Quran by heart whether Arabs or nonArabs have the same Quran in their hearts whether from the east or the west, African, American, European or Asian, black or white, Arab or non Arab have the same Quran with its language which Allah chose to be the language of His book.

We don't think the Bible is 'holy' in the same sense that you do.

The Bible itself is not a magical holy thing, but the Words within are from God so it should be treated with respect.

Neither do we believe the words themselves are magical.

A non-believer reading any Bible will normally give you a reading that completely misunderstands what the Bible intends.

This is not because the reader is unintelligent, but because the books within the Bible require God's guidance to understand.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (Gospel of John 16:13)

However, as it is written:

“No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him”—

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

(First Letter to the Corinthians 2:9-10)

That is why I ask God for His Spirit to guide us each time... so that your eyes may be opened sister.

[Dragoon]

"If you open any book of translation of Quran, will find in the cover "translation of the interpretation (meaning) of The Quran. And if you find "translation of Quran", burn it, it is a lie as no one can translate Quran. If it is not Arabic but translation and written "The Holy Quran", burn it as it is a great lie against Allah and not made by Muslims for sure."

You mentioned earlier that one of your points against (what you falsely considered) Christianity was that "there must be people take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

If the Quran cannot be understood except by interpretation, then how is this different?

Inserting people between you and your god and his words is different from knowing your God by your mind and knowing His great words by your mind, seeing His miracles by your eyes, hearing His miracles by your ears, feeling them by your heart.

Who said it cannot be known except by interpretation? Learn, this is the age of knowledge.

The written words in the Bible are God's words, but God breathed those Words through men, and it was men who touched ink to paper to write those words.

The interpretation is done by men who "take the information they personally get then deliver it to you after digesting it."

Does even the Arabic Quran have only the words that were given... or does it also include 'commentary' and 'interpretation'?

I am a monotheist Muslim.

If we are primitive not teached any religion, will we know The One God?

We will ask ourselves "Who created this tree to produce delicious fruits for us? Who make the earth paved for us? Who send sweat water from sky for us? Who grants me eyes to see? Who grants me ears to hear? Who grants me mind to know all that?

It is nature which is His creation and through His creation we know him.

I know You my lord without seeing You. I know You my Lord without hearing you. It is enough for me to see and hear and touch and feel Your great creation and Your miraculous words.

I ask Your forgiveness to clean me from my sins as the white close is cleaned from dirts.

Wa Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Allameen

I ask as well oh Lord that you send forgiveness for sins to Happy. May she know You and be white as snow, though her sins be as red as scarlet, may You make her as white as wool.

May you give me strength against temptation as well, and guide me in your righteousness. Be with me and my family and help us to walk in your path, turning neither to the left nor to the right.

In the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

(Letter to the Romans 1:18-20)

[Happy Forever]

Salaam and Salaam Happy,

I'm sorry you thought my laughing was intended to insult. It was not. I know that English is not your native language, and there is no shame in making small mistakes... especially when discussing complicated topics.

My laughter was meant in the spirit of two friends who realize that they are imperfect

If I have misunderstood anything you wrote, please correct me in my understanding.

Salam brother,

You are a great man.

You noted that you do not know Christianity.

You also said, "How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice."

Christianity is not the religion of Jesus peace be upon him. Its trinity and its collected book and its churches and customs are to Chritians who make it.

The religion of Allah is universal, for all.

Let me teach you a little from the Bible, for there is much you do not understand.

God did create us clean in the beginning. So clean that we walked in God's presence.

But God gave man the ability to choose, which in Cristianity we often call 'free will', and man listened to Satan and turned away from God and sinned.

Have you ever wondered why there is so much injustice, hate and violence in the world?

If God is perfect, and He made the world, then WHY is it not perfect???

Because man sinned and turned away from God.

This is the religion of Allah.

We have unclean hearts, not because God is imperfect, but because all men have become unclen through Adam.

This is injustice.

Here is the perfection:

"Whoever is guided, surely he is guided only for himself; (i.e., for his own gain) and whoever errs (away), then surely he errs (away) only upon himself; (i.e., to his own loss) and no encumbered self will be encumbered with the encumbrance of another (self); and in no way are We tormenting (anyone) until We have sent forth a Messenger." [17:15]

But God is perfect.

And He still loves us because He created us.

So yes.

Our Creator wants to clean us.

Yes, The One God wants to clean us so He sent His light and guidance and words but He doesn't love us only because we are His creatures.

"Verily Allah doesn't love the corrupters" [28:77]

Verily Allah doesn't love the treacherous" [8:58]

"Verily Allah doesn't love prideful, boasters" [57:23]

"And Allah doesn't love the unjust" [3:57]

Have mercy on me, O God,

according to your mercy and forgiveness,

blot out my transgressions.

Wash away all my iniquity

and cleanse me from my sin.

Amen

By this, we may be clean after His will.

God has proven Himself to me, and has shown me the truth of His Words... so if some person or even an angel from heaven came and tried to give me a message different from that in scripture, I would call him a liar and condemn them.

This is not because I love logic or love myself.

I would do this because I love God and trust Him.

I have the evidence of God's revelation to me, His Holy Spirit, and His Word.

I am a normal human, I didn't see Allah and no one saw Him. Allah didn't reveal to me, I am a normal human not a messenger or a prophet.

God has proven Himself to me, and has shown me the truth of His Words... so if some person or even an angel from heaven came and tried to give me a message different from that in scripture, I would call him a liar and condemn them as they are not angels, they are satans in a good shape.

This is because I love logic and respect my mind and sincere with myself. I know why Allah created me and why he gave me this precious mind.

To know Him and thank Him and ask His forgiveness everyday, every night, every moment. He is The Most deserving to be remembered and worshipped.

Al Hamdu lillah wa Astaghfiru Allah.

Allah, grant us the ability to thank you and ask your forgiveness and good obedience.

We both have words on paper.

We both believe that those words are from God.

When you get right down to it, do you have anything more than the Quran?

Once again Happy, I must ask you.

Did God put the words you wrote to speak to me... or to you?

Brother Dragoon,

This is the life of illusion and the winner who find the truth and follow it.

There are countless religions around the world and countless books they all claim to be god religion and god words but.....

But the reiligion of The One Ture God is the only right religion clear, with evidence from our Creator to distinguish His religion from the falsehood.

Of course you believe that the religion of The God is the strongest one, the most clear one, with a great evidence to support it (God will not create us with mind to leave us in illusion.

Let's agree to show the evidence of our religions and the one which is proved to be the most evident and irrefutable will be for sure the religion of The One God.

God protect you and your family

Edited September 21, 2011 by Happy Forever

[Happy Forever]

I ask as well oh Lord that you send forgiveness for sins to Happy. May she know You and be white as snow, though her sins be as red as scarlet, may You make her as white as wool.

May you give me strength against temptation as well, and guide me in your righteousness. Be with me and my family and help us to walk in your path, turning neither to the left nor to the right.

Amen.

Amen

May God guide you to His straight path.

[MorningGlory]

How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice....Yes, you're right, I don't know Christianity...

So, you came to a Christian forum to criticize Christianity, claimed that it's false, that it's just the words of man, then admitted you don't know what you're talking about, continued to criticize Christianity but maintain that it's injustice to criticize other people's beliefs if you're unfamiliar with them... even though that's your sole purpose for being here?

"Inconsistency is a sign of a failed argument" ~Dr. James White

Try going to an islamist web site and criticizing the Qu'ran or the alleged 'allah' or even Mohammad. You'll see sweet, tolerant, peaceful islam's true face. And, yet, this person is here posting islamic prayers and the whole nine yards. Weird, huh?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I have the Pickthal, which some Muslims consider best because it uses Shakespearian English and so sounds more 'holy'. Its hard even for native English speakers to understand though for exactly that reason.

That's the translation I read most often too.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Hey Happy, I apologize for having been overly curt, and I have an idea.

I find these conversations much more fruitful if we clarify what we mean by various terms and what are our assumptions.

If I start a thread on the meaning and uses of logic will you meet me there?

[Dragoon]

Salaam and Salaam Happy,

I'm sorry you thought my laughing was intended to insult. It was not. I know that English is not your native language, and there is no shame in making small mistakes... especially when discussing complicated topics.

My laughter was meant in the spirit of two friends who realize that they are imperfect

If I have misunderstood anything you wrote, please correct me in my understanding.

Salam brother,

You are a great man.

Thank you, but no... only God is GREAT!

If there is anything good in me, give praise and thanks to God

You noted that you do not know Christianity.

You also said, "How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice."

Christianity is not the religion of Jesus peace be upon him. Its trinity and its collected book and its churches and customs are to Chritians who make it.

The religion of Allah is universal, for all.

Really?

You said that you do not know Christianity, so how do you say this?

Might I remind you that you said, "How can you set your openion of something that you know nothing about? This is complete injustice."

Most of what you've said about Christianity here has been incorrect, so might I invite you to find the truth of these things before you commit a 'complete injustics'

The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you”...

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

(Letter to the Galatian 3:8,14)

Yes. The religion of God (which in Arabic is Allah) is universal.

All nations will be blessed through Jesus Christ, who was sent by God for that purpose.

Let me teach you a little from the Bible, for there is much you do not understand.

God did create us clean in the beginning. So clean that we walked in God's presence.

But God gave man the ability to choose, which in Cristianity we often call 'free will', and man listened to Satan and turned away from God and sinned.

Have you ever wondered why there is so much injustice, hate and violence in the world?

If God is perfect, and He made the world, then WHY is it not perfect???

Because man sinned and turned away from God.

This is the religion of Allah.

Strange.

You said that "Christianity is not the religion of Jesus", yet what I have posted here is from the Christian Bible... and you say that what I posted is 'the religion of God'!

Once again, perhaps you had better explore something before you speak on it