TAKE CARE, FAREWELL OR CURSE?

[senerhu]

So why should I waste MY time when I am not respected. You may be knowledgable but knowledge puffs up and your respect for your elders is lacking.

Respect is earned. I show respect to those who are in authority over me and those who have proven themselves to be wiser than me. Most of the time this means they happen to be older than I am. However, I do not automatically respect every person who is older than me. When I am treated with respect, respect is returned. Repeatedly referring to my age, implying that I am "puffed up" and/or speaking to me in a condescending way is not the way to earn my respect.

Now explain how 'idle" does not fit in the explaination of "every idle word" in the section of the post that is pertinant.

In this case, it wasn't proven that "take care" could be considered an "idle word". Therefore, the rest of the analogy quickly breaks down and is no longer pertinant to the topic at hand.

But I'll expound:

"Take Care", Farewell or Curse? Have you ever told anyone to "take care" when you were saying good-bye? Maybe you recently hung up the phone and advised the person on the other end of the line to "take care." Maybe a friend of yours, a Christian, instead of saying "good-bye" told you to "take care." What did you really say to that person or what did he or she really say to you?

When I say "take care" or "be careful" or "drive safely", what did I really say? This is deep, read carefully: I said (and meant) "take care", "be careful" or "drive safely".

You just advised them "to worry" and "to be anxious."

Sorry, but this is simply not true. To state this as fact, you would:

#1 Have to know my heart (which you do not)

#2 Have to know my intent or motive (which you do not)

Frankly, this is where the rest of the post strays into vain imaginations and twisting scripture to support superstition.

When your knowledge is tempered with your experience you will have understanding along with wisdom.

Not always. While I have had experiences which have taught me many things, wisdom is not necessarily born out of experience. Wisdom comes from God and after much pursuit. To imply that wisdom and understanding automatically come from experience is to greatly discredit the power of the Holy Spirit and what God can do through any young person who has had limited experiences. True, with age a person ideally grows, matures and their wisdom deepens. But I know many "elders" who are just as foolish in their later years as they were in their early years. Wisdom has to be pursued.

You missed the point That I was discussing with shilo. We weren't discussing at this point the relevence to the original post on "take care" We were discussing the relevence of "idle" meaning lazy or evil in regard to Matt. 12:36. You jump in on discussions having no inkling of what is being discussed and expect to be taken seriously. I would like to take you seriously.

I am old enough to say from experience that when I sassed an adult I got a whipping. Do you believe I am a Christian? I believe you are. I believe these verses pertain to what I am saying.

1Ti 5:1

[Kabowd]

You missed the point That I was discussing with shilo. We weren't discussing at this point the relevence to the original post on "take care" We were discussing the relevence of "idle" meaning lazy or evil in regard to Matt. 12:36.

Shiloh's first post was this (in response to the original post):

I am sorry but that is just reading more into the phrase than is there, or is intended. This approach is called being "hyper-literal."

To which you immediately replied:

Just a question, Did Jesus really mean we would give an account of EVERY idle word

Obviously, I was not the only one who thought you were implying that "take care" (since this is the topic at hand) was an "idle word". This is how shiloh responded again:

"Idle" in the sense of unGodly, or evil. It does not cover innocuous phrases or conversations.

"Take care" simply means to "take care of yourself." It means, "I want to see you again, so stay safe, so that I can enjoy your company again."

It is a harmless phrase that is being blown out of proportion to mean something that it does not mean. A little common sense needs to be applied here.

If you're accusing me of missing the point, why haven't you accused the others? You were the one who directly linked the original topic to "idle words". If anyone is missing the point, it is you. The rest of us keep trying to emphasize how unrelated your post is to the rest of the topic.

You jump in on discussions having no inkling of what is being discussed and expect to be taken seriously. I would like to take you seriously.

This was just unnecessarily rude. Thanks for essentially labeling my presence on this board as someone who just "jumps in" on discussions without knowing what I'm talking about. If you're going to make accusations, at least present some evidence. If this topic is your example, it just fell short of proving your point.

I am old enough to say from experience that when I sassed an adult I got a whipping.

And I am old enough to say from experience that when someone treats me with disrespect I've been raised to stand up for myself. But that's all beside the point isn't it? You have no knowledge of my upbringing and it has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever. Why do you keep evading the real issues and making this personal?

Do you believe I am a Christian? I believe you are. I believe these verses pertain to what I am saying.

What? What does that have to do with this topic?

If you are seeking to be a godly young lady you will go far with God if you as a woman develope these qualities. I don't think you desire the loud and stubborn of Prov. 7

When ppl can't refute the facts with a legitimate argument, they resort to ad hominem. I don't even know why I'm honoring you with a reply. Thus far you have discredited me because of my age, insulted me, made false accusations, implied I'm loud, stubborn, "puffed up" and that I deserve a whipping..lol. Geeze. And now you dare to disguise your insults by using Scripture. Wow.

If you would like to enter in this discussion on "idle" please address the question at hand dealing with Matt. 12, and then we might be able to proceed to the matters of "take care."

A simple re-cap of this topic proves that I'm not the one avoiding the question at hand. You're the only one who thinks it's about idle words. For someone so concerned about idle words, you'd think you'd be more careful in responding to a sister in Christ. I find it ironic that you keep wanting to hammer us about being accountable for every word, yet you toss them around so carelessly when responding to me.

Take care.

[larryt]

Obviously, I was not the only one who thought you were implying that "take care" (since this is the topic at hand) was an "idle word". This is how shiloh responded again:

1"Idle" in the sense of unGodly, or evil. It does not cover innocuous phrases or conversations.

2"Take care" simply means to "take care of yourself." It means, "I want to see you again, so stay safe, so that I can enjoy your company again."

3It is a harmless phrase that is being blown out of proportion to mean something that it does not mean. A little common sense needs to be applied here.

If you're accusing me of missing the point, why haven't you accused the others? You were the one who directly linked the original topic to "idle words". If anyone is missing the point, it is you. The rest of us keep trying to emphasize how unrelated your post is to the rest of the topic.

Tess from this point I was only addressing the first phrase(1) in shilo's response to me having to do with the word idle. My next post shows this as does shilo's response back. He says my exegesis is faulty to which I reply that it fits the other occurences of the same word. Again if you want to address the premis I posted: "That every idle word is of concern to God." Then we can move on and we can discuss the other phrases(2 & 3). I cannot proceed to the other questions until the premis is resolved. Read carefully and you will see what I am talking about.

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

Correct. That means that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is "idle" talk in the context of this passage. Again, it is not "lazy" speech, but evil speech. You just made my point.

ABSOLUTELY NOT Don't put words in my mouth. You know exactly what I said and ment. And do you reveal what is in yor heart by your words? Think about it.

Larry I am not putting words in your mouth. You said that "idle," as used in this passage, concerned laziness.

It has nothing to do with evil in nature and everything to do with laziness.

LT

I have proved that it refers to evil speech in that passage and you confirmed by showing that the "idle" speech that Jesus was confronting was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You made my point. You showed that laziness had nothing to do with Matt. 12:36, but rather it was evil speech that was being dealt with.

That further shows that you are misapplying the passage relative to the phrase "take care." It is not harmful nor unGodly to say that phrase as a farewell wish.

Actually you completely overlooked the rest of my explaination and discouonted it.

Mt 20:3

[larryt]

shiloh,

Every other place it is used to indicate lazy, and my lexicons do not indicate anything different about the word. Jesus brought the issue to the heart of the matter that people don't think before they speek. Therefore do't just watch out for the gross and evil things that you say but every word that proceeds out of you mouth. "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Since we cannot agree on a premiss we must agree to disagree.

Ps 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

LT

[Guest aggiekat]

Idle generally does mean "lazy". However, one can also sin by being idle/lazy. An idle word is one that you say without giving it much thought. You may be lazy about guarding your tongue, and thus may wound people with it.

I agree with those who said that "take care" was meant simply to show the person being spoken to that the speaker cares about them and wishes them well.

As for the issue about Tess' lack of respect or wisdom... I have found the majority of her posts on every forum to be well-spoken, well-thought out, and generally polite. Age does not confer wisdom, because experience does not. If ability depended strictly on age, Paul would not have tapped young Timothy. Tess may be a little over-sensitive about being criticized for her age, but being picked on a lot can have that result.

QUOTE

Edited September 19, 2004 by aggiekat

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh,

Every other place it is used to indicate lazy, and my lexicons do not indicate anything different about the word.  Jesus brought the issue to the heart of the matter that people don't think before they speek.  Therefore do't just watch out for the gross and evil things that you say but every word that proceeds out of you mouth.  "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Since we cannot agree on a premiss we must agree to disagree.

Ps 19:14

[larryt]

shiloh,

Every other place it is used to indicate lazy, and my lexicons do not indicate anything different about the word.  Jesus brought the issue to the heart of the matter that people don't think before they speek.  Therefore do't just watch out for the gross and evil things that you say but every word that proceeds out of you mouth.  "For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Since we cannot agree on a premiss we must agree to disagree.

Ps 19:14  Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

LT

There is more to understanding Greek and Hebrew than looking up words in lexicons. You have to at least understand a word in the context it is being used.

You obviously know little about hermeneutics or exegesis which is why you hold the position you do.

I did not deny that "idle" is used as lazy elsewhere, in fact I acknowleged it. You can't apply the way a word is used in one passage universally to all other passages. Sometimes idle means evil, sometimes it means lazy. You need to allow the context to tell you wha the word means.

There would be no disagreement if you would exegete the passage in Matt. 12 properly instead of trying to make it mean what you want it to mean.

De 5:11  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

De 5:20  Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

I'm sorry but my septuagent doesn't have "argos" in either of those verses. Your case does not stand. I don't understand how you arive at that conclusion since it is not used in the septuagent.

One thing that I find makes up for "so much learning" is the Holy Spirit and callouses on my knees.

LT

(I don't know how to paste up the greek and hebrew otherwise I would.

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm sorry but my septuagent doesn't have "argos" in either of those verses. Your case does not stand. I don't understand how you arive at that conclusion since it is not used in the septuagent.

Doesnt really matter since "argos" is used in the New Testament Greek manuscripts and Shav is the Hebrew equivalent. You are the one who brought forth the word argos in your post trying to prove that it meant "lazy" in Matt. 12:36. My point is that "argos" in the Matt. 12:36 cannot be forced to mean lazy, simply because the context does not allow it.

[Kabowd]

Thank you aggiekat and shiloh for your defense of me, I sincerely appreciate it.

larryt, what exactly is your point with the "idle" words anyway? We've all gone 'round and 'round regarding what it means and yet I'm still unclear how it pertains to this post.