How much influence does the Pope have

[ServingHim]

so are you saying then that NO ONE is a spiritual leader and NO ONE is worthy of being called a 'spiritual leader'? Do you go to church??? If so, WHY? Why would you listen to ANY PASTOR, by the way, who stands in the pulpit claiming to be a 'spiritual leader'? I'm assuming that you find this repulsive as well? What about Paul...11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, Eph 4:11-12...are you saying that NO ONE is worthy of listening to, EVEN THOUGH they were promised in building up the church? How do you distinguish who IS and IS NOT of God?

[ServingHim]

Servinghim

I can't even run down nonbelievers let alone other Christian Religions. We all have basically the same beliefs. Mostly, all that is different is the customs humans have adopted. God's word, the word of Christ the Word is always the same.

so true...'running down' ANYONE is simply against what Christ is all about...

When I first came on here, I was welcomed, loved..... I didn't see any of this stuff but now .....well it just seems wrong.  Love is right

me too, yet it didn't take long for the 'hearts of many' to be revealed once they discovered that I was a very devout Christian, a Catholic. Some reveal Christ in them, regardless of my Catholicism...others show quite a different side.

[Guest Liv4Him2]

Tess,

QUOTE 

The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

Still waiting for Scriptural support for this. Until then, I'm afraid all you have is presumption, and borderline blasphemy.

Authority comes from the "Author of Life", Acts 3:15. All authority comes from GOD, "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." Rom 13:1-2. Notice that GOD is selective as to just who He gives authority.

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The Catholic Church has a form of government called a theocracy and operates as an "Hierarchy". Like any other form of government, it has to have "authority" to function.

The Church received its authority from its founder, Jesus Christ...

1. "You are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", Mt 16:18. Jesus will build his Church on solid rock. He will be the 'cornerstone' Psa 118:22 and Eph 2:20-22, the 'foundation' (cornerstone) 1Cor 3:11, and the 'rock' 1Cor 10:4. The 'Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it', means, He will defend it from within and from without, against all adversaries for all time.

2. The Apostles are the foundation with Jesus Christ as the "Chief cornerstone", Eph 2:20.

3. Jesus Christ gave a higher authority for disputes between persons, even when there are two or more witnesses. He told them to appeal to the Church in Mt 18:17, "But if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be as a heathen and the publican (a tax collector for the Roman Empire)." Here, Christ gave full authority to His Church.

4. Paul admonishes those who refuse to accept the authority given to the Church and warns what will happen to them if they refuse in Rom 13:1-2, "Let everyone be subject to the higher authorities, for THERE EXISTS NO AUTHORITY EXCEPT FROM GOD, AND THOSE WHO EXIST HAVE BEEN APPOINTED BY GOD. Therefore HE WHO RESISTS THE AUTHORITY RESISTS THE ORDINANCE OF GOD; AND THEY THAT RESIST BRING ON THEMSELVES CONDEMNATION."

5. Jesus Christ Himself is the head of the Church He founded, the "Head of His Body", Eph 1:22. That is about as authoritative as can be attained.

6. Jesus Christ made sure that His Church was worthy of the authority which He gave to it. He made sure His Church was spotless, "In order that He might present to Himself to the Church in all her glory, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she might be holy and without blemish," Eph 5:27. He made sure His Church was worthy to be called the "House of GOD", and the "Pillar of Truth", "...how to conduct yourself in the House of GOD, which is the Church of the living GOD, the pillar and mainstay of the truth," 1Tim 3:15.

7. Jesus Christ loves the Church He founded, Eph 5:29. Do you?

8. GOD has said He will be with His Church forever, "I will never leave you, neither will I forsake you," Heb 13:5. In Mt 28:20, Jesus said, "I am with you all days, even until the end of the world." That means He will be with His Church every day in every century until the end of time. Which Church was His Church when these verses were uttered?

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GOD has given authority to several people in the Bible. He signifies the passing of authority by changing the name of the person. Some examples Are...

1. GOD renamed Abram to Abraham when He made him the 'Father of a Multitude of Nations' in Gen 17:5.

2. GOD renamed Sara to Sarah when He made her the 'Mother of Nations' in Gen 17:15-16.

3. GOD renamed Jacob to Israel, the name of the Jewish Nation, and he became the first Israeli in Gen 32:29.

4. GOD renamed Simon to Peter when He made him the head of His Church in Mt 16:18. Peter was given the authority by GOD, and GOD renamed him to emphasize it. In Mt 16:19, Jesus Christ gave Peter even more authority. He gave him, and none other, the 'keys to the kingdom of heaven', and told him, "Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." A lot of authority was given in these two verses to Simon, now Peter, a mere creature of GOD.

5. There are more than 50 verses in the Bible that refer to the supremacy of Peter over all of the Apostles. The name of Peter appears more often than the name of any other Apostle in the New Testament. When the Apostles are named, Peter is named first in every case except Gal 2:9. In Mt 10:2, Peter is even called "first", "Now these are the names of the twelve Apostles: FIRST Simon, who is called Peter...". In Acts 15:7, Peter said, "Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through 'MY MOUTH' the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe." Peter recounted his supremacy, as GOD had given it to him in Mt 16:18-19. In Lk 22:31-31, Jesus said, "Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and do you when once you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." Here Jesus appointed Peter to strengthen the others, another clear sign of his supremacy. Finally, in Jn 21:15-17, it is Peter, and only Peter, to whom the Lord commands three times to feed his flock. Peter was the supreme Apostle. The present day supreme Bishop, the Bishop of Rome, is the Pope, Peter's direct successor in a long line of Popes.

6. Jesus Christ gave full authority to the Apostles when in Lk 10:16, He said, "He who hears you, hears Me; and he who rejects you, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me." We hear His words through His Church. Therefore these words have to apply to His Church as well, 'he who rejects My Church rejects Me'. That verse also prevents the Pope from teaching heresy, so when the Pope speaks in matters of faith and morals, he is speaking as Christ would and with His authority. Paul acknowledged the authority given to the Apostles in 2Cor 10:8, "For even if I boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord has given for your upbuilding, and not for your destruction, I shall not be put to shame."

7. Jesus gave authority to 72 other disciples in Lk 10:1-12, and told them He sends them forth as 'lambs in the midst of wolves'. He told them to shake the dust off their feet from the towns that do not receive them.

8. We are commanded to obey our superiors (priests, Bishops, and the Pope) and to be subject to them, as they keep watch as having to render an account of our souls, Heb 13:17.

9. GOD placed others in His Church as well, "And GOD indeed has placed some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers; after that miracles, then gifts of healing, services of help, power of administration, and the speaking of various tongues," 1Cor 12:28. Does your Church have all these?

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Knowing of course, that the Apostles would not live forever, and that His Church would continue until the 'end of time'

(Mt 28:20), Jesus Christ made provision to pass on the authority from generation to generation...

1. "I laid the foundation, and another builds thereon. But let everyone take care how he builds thereon, for other foundations no one can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1Cor 3:10-11. So there will be followers who will build upon the foundation.

2. "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and have appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain...," Jn 15:16.

3. "...that you should set right anything that is defective and should appoint presbyters (priests) in every city as I myself directed you to do," Titus 1:5. Paul commands them to make new priests.

4. "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as Bishops to rule the Church of GOD," Acts 20:28. Here the Bishops are given the authority by the Holy Spirit to rule the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Does your Church have Bishops?

5. "And now I commend you to GOD and to the word of His grace, who is able to build up and to give the inheritance among all the sanctified," Acts 20:32. Pass on the authority to your heirs.

6. The Pope and the Bishops are the lawful successors to the Apostles. If we reject their authority, then we reject Christ.

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It is the Holy Spirit who guides and guards the Church that Jesus Christ founded. He is the ultimate and final authority...

1. "I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you shall know Him, because He will dwell with you, and be in you," Jn 14:16-17,26, Jn 15:26,16:13. The Holy Spirit will dwell in the Church that Jesus Christ founded and He will be with that Church forever.

1. "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when the Spirit of Truth has come, he will teach you all the truth, ...and the things that are to come he will declare to you," Jn 16:12-15

2. "I fed you with milk, not with solid food, for you were not yet ready for it...I have planted...but GOD has given the growth," 1Cor 3:1-15.

3. Eph 4:11-16, "...in order to perfect the saints for a work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the deep knowledge of the Son of GOD, to perfect manhood to the mature measure of the fullness of Christ...that we may be now no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine devised in the wickedness of men, in craftiness, according to the wiles of error.

4. Phil 1:5-11, "...he who has begun a good work in you will bring it to perfection until the day of Christ...I pray that your charity may more and more abound in knowledge and all discernment." Clearly GOD is telling us that knowledge will increase with time.

[Kabowd]

Oh yay, looks like this could turn into a Protestant/Catholic debate...lol. Since you brought this up, there are a few things that confuse me (regarding Catholicism), if you'd like to explain.

DISCLAIMER: this is not an attack on Catholics or Catholicism. While I don't understand and disagree with much of the Catholic doctrine, I'm not foolish enough to believe that all Catholics are the same or that they cannot also be christians. That being said, here we go....

We do not worship Mary or venerate her as a member of the Godhead.

Venerate: "To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference."

One of the 10 Commandments is "Honor your Father and your Mother." Do you honor your father and mother? Do you respect them? These are the things Catholics do for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

If you don't venerate her as you would a member of the Godhead, why do you pray to her? Can you show me anywhere in Scripture that we are taught that we should pray to her, or any other person who is not part of the Trinity? As I was taught, the Scripture states that there is one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. (I Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 12:24). Respecting and honoring does not necessitate praying to someone. I respect and honor my parents, but I do not pray to them.

Name another mother who was addressed by a messenger from GOD, the Angel named Gabriel, who asked that she consent to be the Mother of GOD?

The words given to Gabriel by the Father:

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women." Luke 1:28.

And Abraham was called "the father of many nations" and God Himself said he would be blessed so that he could be a blessing. Do you address father Abraham in your prayers also?

I'm curious why Mary's motherhood is significant. Sure, her womb was inhabited by the Savior but I find it more significant that following the Savior's fulfillment of His purpose, He inhabits all believers in our hearts (through the work of the Holy Spirit).

Mary is the only person in the entire Bible to be called "Blessed art thou among women".

Let's look at the meaning of "blessed". The Greek word is "eulogeo" which is a combination of two words: "eu" (meaning: to be well off, fare well, prosper) and "logeo" (derived from "logos" meaning: a word, or thought of the mind - if I'm not mistaken, it's where we get our word "logic"). I'm not a Greek scholar, but I don't think you have to be one to see that being "blessed" or called "blessed" does not elevate someone's status to divinity. Mary may have been thought of as "prosperous" among women, but she is by no means the only one who was ever to be blessed. In Mark 14:22, the very same word "eulogeo" is used to say that Jesus "blessed the bread". The bread was blessed. Do you also pray to bread? In Luke 19:16, Jesus blessed the loaves and fishes. Do you also pray to fish? More importantly, according to Galatians 3:9, I am called "blessed" (along with all of those in Christ) ... if you've been praying to me, I'm sorry to say I haven't been hearing your prayers.

".. just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is *justified by the law in the sight of God [is] evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal 3:6-14 NKJV)

"I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

1Timothy 3:14-15 (Notice the Bible states that the church is the pillar of truth)

It is the Church which has the truth of the teaching of Christ. The Church is His Body (Ephesians 5:23) and so it must be truth, as He is truth. The teaching of His Church is infallible, as He is infallible.

#1 In I Timothy 3:14-15, how do you know that the phrase "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" was not in reference to the living God and not the church?

#2 Christ is infallible, certainly. You will find nowhere in Scripture where it is stated that the church is infallible. If you can do so, I will be in awe of you

GOD has always spoken to His people through a father figure,

be it Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Peter (John 21:15-17, Acts 15:7), and others. Since it is a known fact that GOD never changes (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, James 1:17), He is the same today as He was in the time of those Biblical figures.

I'm with you here so far (except it could be argued that while God in His nature does not change, this doesn't mean His ways do not...but that's a whole other topic ).

He speaks to His Church through the present day "Peter", the successor to the Biblical Peter, today's Bishop of Rome.

You lost me right here. Scriptural support please? Specifically:

A) Please explain how we all (believers in Christ) went from being His church, His Body...now to Peter being the only significant figure.

B) Please explain how Peter has any significance over me or any other believer.

C) Please explain how the Bishop of Rome has any significance over me or any other believer.

D) Please provide scripture (in context) to show where we are told that Peter or any of his "successors" are infallible.

He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Luke 10:16

This is but one of the promises of authority which Jesus Christ gave to His Apostles.

Can you see the deeper meaning of the first six words of Luke 10:16?

The deeper teaching reads like this, 'He who hears me through your mouth will never hear anything but the absolute truth'. It has the meaning of that, 'through His Church the Apostles and their descendants will be prevented by GOD Himself from teaching anything other than the absolute truth'

This isn't called "deeper teaching", this is called reading into things. Also known as basing doctrine on presumption. It could also be known as "false teaching". Very dangerous.

Down through almost two-thousand years of recorded history of the Church which Jesus Christ founded, and with a succession of two hundred sixty three Bishops of Rome (Popes), not one Pope has ever taught error from the Chair of Peter on the matter of faith and morals, and all of this in spite of a handful of 'less than holy' popes (remember, Jesus Himself chose one 'less than holy' Apostle, by the name of Judas).

So you are asserting the Pope is infallible? Oi....

If someone would like to respond to this....anyone....please do so without quoting me out of context or twisting my words. If you can do that, I can guarantee a reply. I will not respond, however, to being misquoted or "drive-by" posts which pick and choose bits and pieces of my words instead of addressing the content.

If you're going to address me, please respond to all of what I said or at least acknowledge the parts you don't understand or cannot refute. I'd like to continue the discussion, but it's a waste of my time if what I say is misrepresented or largely ignored.

Thank you.

[Guest aggiekat]

so are you saying then that NO ONE is a spiritual leader and NO ONE is worthy of being called a 'spiritual leader'? Do you go to church??? If so, WHY? Why would you listen to ANY PASTOR, by the way, who stands in the pulpit claiming to be a 'spiritual leader'? I'm assuming that you find this repulsive as well? What about Paul...11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, Eph 4:11-12...are you saying that NO ONE is worthy of listening to, EVEN THOUGH they were promised in building up the church? How do you distinguish who IS and IS NOT of God? 

I'm saying that no one person should ever try to be THE spiritual leader for the entire world. That is what the Pope is trying to do, is it not?

Yes, I go to church. I go there to hear the Word preached, to learn, and to interact with other believers.

I listen to a pastor because he's studied more than I have and knows more than I do. That's also why I went to college when I wanted to know more about ecology. I do think a church should have a pastor (aka shepard). We can't all preach, or we'd never hear anything over the din of so many voices. As for what the pastor teaches, we are told in the Bible to hold everything up against the Word. As long as a pastor preaches the Word and advises the people in his church from the Word, I think we're doing well. But one man (i.e. the Pope) cannot advise the entire world. The world is too big for us to approach the Pope and talk to him. The Church started out small. Believers met in houses to hear the Word taught. From what I've observed, it still works best that way. Small groups of believers, where they can know and truly care for each other. Where the pastor is known and his life can be viewed.

How do I distinguish who IS and IS NOT of God? That's easy. I watch what they do and listen to what they say. If they speak the Truth according to God's Word and they live according to that Truth, they are obviously of God.

Kat

[Kabowd]

Is it customary on this board to take a particular religion and run it down.

Is this a Christian board?

Is this Christian behavior?

If this was addressed to me, could you clarify why? And is it customary to generalize everyone on the board because of the view of some?

of course, Christ is infallible...HE IS TRUTH...ALL of IT!

Did I ever say otherwise?

AND Christ IS THE CHURCH ... 4 And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Acts 9:4

I'm sorry but one phrase out of one verse simply will not thoroughly prove your point. If you've read very much of Paul's writings, you will notice how (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) he relates the "church" as the "Body of Christ" and parallels the church to the relationship between a husband and a wife (see Ephesians 5:25). This theme is carried out throughout scripture, even into revelations where we (the church) referred to as the "Bride" and the Lamb (Jesus) is the Bridegroom. Thus, it is not a stretch to understand that just as a husband and wife become "one", Christ considers His Bride as part of Himself, part of His own body. This is why when he addressed Saul, He took his persecution of believers personally. Saul wasn't just opposing God's people, Jesus was declaring to Saul that he was also opposing God Himself. Also, please show me scripture where Jesus declares "I AM THE CHURCH". Numerous times we are told that Christ is the HEAD (as you noted), but I have not seen where He has stated that He and the church are one in the same.

do you ever ask anyone to pray for YOU?

Yes, but only those who are living....I've never requested prayers from the dead. Again, can you show me scripture where we are encouraged to do so?

The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. James 5:16

Once again, a solitary verse will not justify adopting a doctrine for me. This verse does NOT say "the prayer of a righteous dead man has great power in its effects".

She IS in heaven, already 'perfect' as our heavenly Father is perfect...and we believe in 'communion of the saints' AND that when you die, you LIVE FOREVER!

There are alot of ppl in heaven. I don't pray to any of them, other than God Himself. Just because they are bodily present with the Lord does not mean they are spiritually closer. The Holy Spirit dwells inside of me, why would I need to appeal to anyone else?

Would you like to address the rest of my previous post? Or just accuse me of "running down" your religion? I explained that I was asking questions because there are things I don't understand. Why are you so defensive when someone asks questions? We are called to pursue truth and wisdom, please don't criticize me for seeking to do so. Thanks.

Ditto what I just said above in reference to this post too.

[ServingHim]

Dear ServingHim,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

I can't ever understand how anyone could 'degrade' another and 'exalt themselves' when it comes to Christianity...and I see a lot of that here on this board...

I think I understand why others 'degrade' other beliefs. It is precisely to 'exalt' their own belief by comparison. We must understand that everyone believes themselves to have the correct belief/interpretation (otherwise they wouldn't believe in it). And since some held beliefs are directly contradictory to others, those other beliefs must a priori be 'wrong.' What I have said above refers to the internal workings of the mind. This is not outwardly disgusting. However, what behaviour manifests from this thinking could be disgusting.

If this sort of thinking isn't mitigated by a sense of tolerance and respect for other beliefs, the outward behaviour becomes authoritative, authoritarian, and downright obnoxious. From my non-christian perspective, I often experience this sort of behaviour, as you can imagine. What does help me understand and forgive the people who perpetrate this behaviour on me, is that they lack the maturity to control these base impulses. I hope you too can accept this perspective and forgive as I have.

Best regards,

UndecidedFrog

very well said, undecided...you have hit the nail on the head! Peace & blessings...

[Kabowd]

Servinghim

I can't even run down nonbelievers let alone other Christian Religions. We all have basically the same beliefs.  Mostly, all that is different is the customs humans have adopted.  God's word, the word of Christ the Word is always the same.

so true...'running down' ANYONE is simply against what Christ is all about...

When I first came on here, I was welcomed, loved..... I didn't see any of this stuff but now .....well it just seems wrong.

[ServingHim]

so are you saying then that NO ONE is a spiritual leader and NO ONE is worthy of being called a 'spiritual leader'? Do you go to church??? If so, WHY? Why would you listen to ANY PASTOR, by the way, who stands in the pulpit claiming to be a 'spiritual leader'? I'm assuming that you find this repulsive as well? What about Paul...11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, Eph 4:11-12...are you saying that NO ONE is worthy of listening to, EVEN THOUGH they were promised in building up the church? How do you distinguish who IS and IS NOT of God?

[ServingHim]

Do you two intend on contributing to the topic or just complain about how bad the site is? Seriously, if you can't add something ... you're free to ignore it.

tess, dear, I HAVE ADDED QUITE A BIT TO THE CONVERSATION...yet obviously you chose to ignore that to pick out THIS. SO, if you'd like to go back and read what I've contributed, that would be marvelous...