Some views of the Rapture

[John3;16]

idied2 Posted on Sep 26 2004, 02:57 AM

QUOTE

In Rev 19:10 it is revealed that the bride has the testimony of Jesus, and again in Rev 19:14 the armies which were in heaven (read it, in heaven!) followed him upon white horses, (made clean and white) where are they going you might ask?

Hello John3;16

If i might ask. Where is the first church right now? Are they sleeping in the dust of the earth or are they in heave 

                                              In CHRIST JESUS 

Paul taught extensively on this subject, and by placing precept upon precept the way it would appear, at least to me is that when Christ returns to catch up his saints, which as you know I believe is before the Tribulation period, the dead will rise first, now for this to harmonize with

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Greetings Mathetes,

Since about 1975, I have inundated myself with research into Eschatology. I too, know there are a gazillion opinions from even reknowned Christian scholars who differ on the interpretation of the scriptures. All that does to me is serve to show that it is I, that must seek the TRUTH and to quit listening to man. If you have not reached that point yet, then you still have far to go. In ALL study of the scriptures, it is MOST imperative that you are guided by the Holy Spirit. It is also MOST important to lean not unto your own understanding, but by carefully comparing scripture with scripture (the spiritual with the spiritual), you will become "enlightened", not by what man says, but what God says.

When I have found such souls as do do this, my spirit leaps inside me, for I can discuss and share the Word of God with them as if I was speaking to myself. We are ONE in the Spirit, ONE in the Lord.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Hope you know by now to me:"...let God be true, but every man a liar..."<Romans 3:4> applies to everyone. You, me, everyone.

Hopefully you have looked into all my prior post suggested, including JCnot4me.com To me, saying there is a "gap" of 1970 years plus between the First Century and those Scriptures I gave [there are others] and waving your hands {don't mean you specifically-anyone} with <Daniel 9:27> and the coming Peace Treaty is OBVIOUSLY sound exegesis and those who think otherwise are clearly not dividing the Word of Truth:

Let me tell you and everyone:DON'T EVEN TRY.

God [won't define exactly what I mean more than that] told me in 1992 after the approximately 18 month full-time Good vs Evil study i have mentioned:

"Tell them you've been to Hell and back." Quote and endquote.

This was in response to my question to God as to whether I should keep quiet about all that happened {including dying:told a senior priest who asked:"Did you stop breathing, did your heart stop?": "More than that"}

So. JCnot4me.com does definitely not {my definition} suffer fools or hand-waving or proof by assertion/intimidation/derision/etc. bulls---. Hopefully, my days of doing that are over with.

My prior post packed a lot into it, and so far has not been addressed.

Also, let me add on to this the other "Gap" theory re <Genesis 1:2>. With Science saying the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old, the Word of God from a straightforward exegesis says [to me, my understanding] that the heaven(s) and earth were created some 6,000-10,000 years ago.

The theories I have reviewed and studied to some degree [see www.icr.org for one source] postulate:

1. <Genesis 1:2> is the "Gap":some horrible judgment of The LORD happened there.

2. The days of <Genesis 1-2:3> are not literal 12/24 hour days [day defined as one rotation of the earth on its axis] but are day-ages. The Hebrew word Yom does not always/necessarily give the 1 rotation of earth definition.

3. www.icr.org recently i believe somewhat completed the R.A.T.E study {Radioactivity and the age of the earth}. Perhaps decay rates were much different before the flood, speed of light much greater etc.

Me personally-I go by the 6,000-10,000 age and have more than one idea about the discrepency with Science [still mulling]. Similar mulling re the 1970 year "gap" between The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ saying "this generation shall not pass" in 30-33A.D.

I believe both "Gap" and "gap" have to be addressed in ways that are 100% consistent with the Word of God. For us as well as serious new seekers. Pretending "no problem" increases the "problem". My opinion.

Again-check out Jcnot4me.com As I recall he is more than willing to respond to critiques of his scholarship-think he said "prove me wrong". But please check out his scholarship first for "this generation". 52 translations plus much more. :t: :t: :t: :t: :t:

Also-<2Peter 3> tells me we are to be looking for and hasting the day of God for the New Heavens and New Earth. To me, this old one is visibly being at least pre-dissolved <2Peter 3:12>

________________________________________________________________________________

http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%.../Mt%2024-34.htm

Edited September 26, 2004 by ajesuschrist_mathetes

[Guest idied2]

19:14 the armies which were in heaven (read it, in heaven!) followed him upon white horses,

This is hardly explainable with words. but I will try.

Everything that was, is and will be is in heaven in HE who sits on the throne. HE has created it and continues to make it happen with his act of will. When CHRIST decends from heaven with a shout. The dead in CHRIST will rise from death back to life and those who are alive at his coming will be transformed and in the twinkling of an eye in a flash of lightning all will be coming with him.

CHRIST will decend from heaven.

The dead will rise from death.

The living will come from the ground.

All at the same time.

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[Guest idied2]

Notice in the following scripture that CHRIST returnes in a flash of lightning.

Mt 24:27

For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Notice that the following scripture says together with them.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

caught up together with them

Notice that the following scripture says in a moment.

1Co 15:52

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

  in a moment,

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[John3;16]

Idied2

This is hardly explainable with words. but I will try.

Everything that was, is and will be is in heaven in HE who sits on the throne. HE has created it and continues to make it happen with his act of will. When CHRIST decends from heaven with a shout. The dead in CHRIST will rise from death back to life and those who are alive at his coming will be transformed and in the twinkling of an eye in a flash of lightning all will be coming with him.

CHRIST will decend from heaven.

The dead will rise from death.

The living will come from the ground.

All at the same time.

When you say that those who have died, (which the scriptures refer to as sleep) rise again when Christ returns, do you mean that they are dust? I agree that our flesh returns to dust, but our soul is present with the Lord, In 2 Corinthians5:6 we see that while we are in our bodies we are absent from the Lord and in verse 5:7, we see that absent from the body present with the Lord, I believe these verses listed below support this belief.

2 Corinthians|5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of

[Guest idied2]

Hello John3;16

I agree that our flesh returns to dust, but our soul is present with the Lord,

Your soul is not present with the LORD until HE raises you back up. But for those who have fallen asleep in CHRIST "died" time does not exist. They fall asleep and are raised up in that flash of lightning to meet the LORD in the air.

until Jesus died on the cross all those who were destined for heaven were in a place called Abrahams bosom,

This is a missunderstanding of scripture. The angels that carried lazerus are CHRISTS saints and this is another reference to what CHRIST was saying.

Mt 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the reference to the angels.

Luke 20:36

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection..

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mt 25:31

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

In CHRIST JESUS :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[J.C.]

What is everyones view about this verse:

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to presevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In Christ's Love,

JC

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings J.C.

What is everyones view about this verse:

Revelation 3:10

Because you have kept My command to presevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

COMPARE the above with this:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Now consider the following:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Do you get the gist?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Greetings Mathetes,

Since about 1975, I have inundated myself with research into Eschatology. I too, know there are a gazillion opinions from even reknowned Christian scholars who differ on the interpretation of the scriptures. All that does to me is serve to show that it is I, that must seek the TRUTH and to quit listening to man. If you have not reached that point yet, then you still have far to go. In ALL study of the scriptures, it is MOST imperative that you are guided by the Holy Spirit. It is also MOST important to lean not unto your own understanding, but by carefully comparing scripture with scripture (the spiritual with the spiritual), you will become "enlightened", not by what man says, but what God says.

When I have found such souls as do do this, my spirit leaps inside me, for I can discuss and share the Word of God with them as if I was speaking to myself. We are ONE in the Spirit, ONE in the Lord.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Hope you know by now to me:"...let God be true, but every man a liar..."<Romans 3:4> applies to everyone. You, me, everyone.

Hopefully you have looked into all my prior post suggested, including JCnot4me.com To me, saying there is a "gap" of 1970 years plus between the First Century and those Scriptures I gave [there are others] and waving your hands {don't mean you specifically-anyone} with <Daniel 9:27> and the coming Peace Treaty is OBVIOUSLY sound exegesis and those who think otherwise are clearly not dividing the Word of Truth:

Let me tell you and everyone:DON'T EVEN TRY.

God [won't define exactly what I mean more than that] told me in 1992 after the approximately 18 month full-time Good vs Evil study i have mentioned:

"Tell them you've been to Hell and back." Quote and endquote.

This was in response to my question to God as to whether I should keep quiet about all that happened {including dying:told a senior priest who asked:"Did you stop breathing, did your heart stop?": "More than that"}

So. JCnot4me.com does definitely not {my definition} suffer fools or hand-waving or proof by assertion/intimidation/derision/etc. bulls---. Hopefully, my days of doing that are over with.

My prior post packed a lot into it, and so far has not been addressed.

Also, let me add on to this the other "Gap" theory re <Genesis 1:2>. With Science saying the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old, the Word of God from a straightforward exegesis says [to me, my understanding] that the heaven(s) and earth were created some 6,000-10,000 years ago.

The theories I have reviewed and studied to some degree [see www.icr.org for one source] postulate:

1. <Genesis 1:2> is the "Gap":some horrible judgment of The LORD happened there.

2. The days of <Genesis 1-2:3> are not literal 12/24 hour days [day defined as one rotation of the earth on its axis] but are day-ages. The Hebrew word Yom does not always/necessarily give the 1 rotation of earth definition.

3. www.icr.org recently i believe somewhat completed the R.A.T.E study {Radioactivity and the age of the earth}. Perhaps decay rates were much different before the flood, speed of light much greater etc.

Me personally-I go by the 6,000-10,000 age and have more than one idea about the discrepency with Science [still mulling]. Similar mulling re the 1970 year "gap" between The Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ saying "this generation shall not pass" in 30-33A.D.

I believe both "Gap" and "gap" have to be addressed in ways that are 100% consistent with the Word of God. For us as well as serious new seekers. Pretending "no problem" increases the "problem". My opinion.

Again-check out Jcnot4me.com As I recall he is more than willing to respond to critiques of his scholarship-think he said "prove me wrong". But please check out his scholarship first for "this generation". 52 translations plus much more. :t: :t: :t: :t: :t:

Also-<2Peter 3> tells me we are to be looking for and hasting the day of God for the New Heavens and New Earth. To me, this old one is visibly being at least pre-dissolved <2Peter 3:12>

________________________________________________________________________________

http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Second%.../Mt%2024-34.htm

Maybe this is not the right forum on worthyboards to discuss this, but I still believe that there are Holy Bible scholars here that can rebut Mark Smith. To me, reasonable sound exegesis that is satisfying must first deal with "Gap" and "gap":"Gap" being the discrepency between Science's age of Universe=13.7 billion years and Holy Bible age = 6,000-10,000 years. "gap" being the current 1970 or so years from the First Century Scripture [e.g. "this generation" etc already mentioned in this forum] till the current year 2004.

To me, both "Gap" and "gap" exegesis should [my opinion] come before trying to deal with Daniel's 70 weeks/7 year Tribulation/pre/mid/post/Daniel's Last week or half of his last week. To me [my opinion] this is my view of "The Rapture"

What follows is a link to Mark Smith's email back and forth to those trying to challenge/correct him as to Jesus Christ being a false prophet. Again, I hope and believe there are scholars here that can deal with this.

http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/Sec...e%20Prophet.htm

[John3;16]

Idied2

Your soul is not present with the LORD until HE raises you back up. But for those who have fallen asleep in CHRIST "died" time does not exist. They fall asleep and are raised up in that flash of lightning to meet the LORD in the air.

That's fine with me, I don't believe that pre-trib,mid-trib,post-trib,no-trib, doctrine is what is most important, understanding that Jesus alone paid for all your sins, is what is important!

God bless!