The Most Hated People on Earth

[Guest yod]

I think we'd agree here. Which of these are you referring to? I don't come from a 'mainline' denomination, so if you've come across any new pagan rituals, please share.

almost every Chrisian holiday was originally a pagan one that was redefined. Currently, we have Halloween being changed to "Fall Festival" but please note that I'm not saying they are pagan for doing so. I have no problem whatsoever with Christians attempting to use a cultural celebration as a reason for gathering, or as a way of evangelising pagans. However, it's really confusing to a jewish person when we take a festival dedicated to the Goddes of Fertility (Ishtar) and make it the highest observance of the year (Easter).

So messianic jews have sought to purge these confusing observances from their calendar. Some (usually gentiles in the messianic movement) are highly critical of those who don't think likewise, but there is a difference between criticizing the practise and criticizing the practisioners.

Things like keeping kosher are not required of Gentile believers (Acts 15), and I am not positive that Jewish believers are meant to continue them either since Messiah has come.

There is no commandment against observing the instruction given in God's Word anywhere in the scriptures.

It drives me crazy that saying such a thing is always interpreted as if I'm saying it's mandatory for all believers (gentile or jews) to observe torah in the same way. Obviously, that was addressed in Acts 15 and several other places.

Christians persecuted Jews? Please don't forget that it was the apostate Messiah-rejecting Jews who persecuted fledgling Messianic believers with Roman help in the First century.

How could I forget that ignorant unbelievers ALSO persecuted messianic jews? That doesn't change the fact that Christians have been the worst persecutors of jewish people (Believers and non-believers) in the last 2,000 years with Islam jockeying for that position currently.

These days, anyone who is a Believer in Jesus has a target on their back/chest, both literally and spiritually.

and I don't disagree with that statement. However, that doesn't change or excuse the fact that Christians have also taken part in the persecution of Jesus' actual flesh-and-blood relatives.

[Ariux]

If Christians had not been the worst persecutors of Jews in the last 2000 years,

It sounds like you hate Christianity, i.e. Christ.

Mostly it is a way to describe themselves as "not anti-semitic" christians in order to reach the jewish community with a gospel that isn't greekish.

You claim that Messianic Jews mostly describe themselves as such to show Jews they're not anti-semitic. Your error is exposed in the fact that Jews have an especially high dislike of Messianic Jews, beyond that of other Christians. Even the OP makes this point: "[The] Jewish Community is poisoned against us teaching their children that we want to destroy Judaism." Jews see Messianic Jews as an especially onerous kind of Christian, not as a less offensive kind of Christian. Jews believe 1) Messianic Jews are not Jews. 2) Messianic Judaism is the segment of Christianity that is most devoted to destroying Judaism, and that Messianic Jews do so by stealth and by deliberately misrepresenting Judaism.

If Christianity were not redefining pagan rituals and then dressing them up as "holy", there would be no reason for messianic jews to attempt a return to the simple faith handed down to us by the Apostles.

Oh the offense to you of Christians lighting up a Christmas tree with an Angel or Star (of Bethlehem) on top, and a manger scene underneath, to celebrate Christ's birth. You think it would be so much better if Christ were removed from Christmas (just like most Antichristians want). Your objection is especially hypocritical considering that modern Jews have adopted the star of Moloch, the golden calf, to represent themselves.

But even worse is when Christians accuse jewish believers of legalism for simply obeying God at His Word, and observing the memorials that He calls "everlasting"

Judaism is very law-bound compared to Christianity. How could a Christian not think Jews are guilty of legalisms, especially when those legalisms get in the Jew's way of accepting Christ?

[Bold Believer]

I think we'd agree here. Which of these are you referring to? I don't come from a 'mainline' denomination, so if you've come across any new pagan rituals, please share.

almost every Chrisian holiday was originally a pagan one that was redefined. Currently, we have Halloween being changed to "Fall Festival" but please note that I'm not saying they are pagan for doing so. I have no problem whatsoever with Christians attempting to use a cultural celebration as a reason for gathering, or as a way of evangelising pagans. However, it's really confusing to a jewish person when we take a festival dedicated to the Goddes of Fertility (Ishtar) and make it the highest observance of the year (Easter).

So messianic jews have sought to purge these confusing observances from their calendar. Some (usually gentiles in the messianic movement) are highly critical of those who don't think likewise, but there is a difference between criticizing the practise and criticizing the practisioners.

Things like keeping kosher are not required of Gentile believers (Acts 15), and I am not positive that Jewish believers are meant to continue them either since Messiah has come.

There is no commandment against observing the instruction given in God's Word anywhere in the scriptures.

It drives me crazy that saying such a thing is always interpreted as if I'm saying it's mandatory for all believers (gentile or jews) to observe torah in the same way. Obviously, that was addressed in Acts 15 and several other places.

Christians persecuted Jews? Please don't forget that it was the apostate Messiah-rejecting Jews who persecuted fledgling Messianic believers with Roman help in the First century.

How could I forget that ignorant unbelievers ALSO persecuted messianic jews? That doesn't change the fact that Christians have been the worst persecutors of jewish people (Believers and non-believers) in the last 2,000 years with Islam jockeying for that position currently.

These days, anyone who is a Believer in Jesus has a target on their back/chest, both literally and spiritually.

and I don't disagree with that statement. However, that doesn't change or excuse the fact that Christians have also taken part in the persecution of Jesus' actual flesh-and-blood relatives.

The whole pine tree thing is Germanic paganism, I agree. Likewise with Ishtar, which should be Pesach, and was in early Christianity. The word 'Easter' is only in the KJV because they didn't have another word to translate into Passover. The Greek word remains the same.

Some Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) have persecuted Jews. And some Jews have returned the favor. The exact opposite is true as well though, the most obvious example being during the Holocaust. Christian believers hid Jews from the Nazis. So in a certain sense, we're even.

The Gospel is not Greek-ish as you suppose, but it was written in Greek primarily. Why do you consider the Gospel to be Greek in nature? It the Gospel Aramaic-ish because some of the early Gospels were written in Aramaic? Is Revelation a Greek book because John wrote in Greek, but overlaid Hebrew thought on what he wrote?

You are NOT the most hated people on the earth, despite what you may think Yod. Believers in general are.

[Guest yod]

It sounds like you hate Christianity, i.e. Christ.

Then you are only hearing what you want to hear.

i'm a christian.

But that doesn't mean we should cover for cultural traditions, just because someone calls them "Christian". The truth is a very deeply spiritual thing

You claim that Messianic Jews mostly describe themselves as such to show Jews they're not anti-semitic. Your error is exposed in the fact that Jews have an especially high dislike of Messianic Jews, beyond that of other Christians.

Because they are considered traitors (by the Orthodox and Reformed Jewish communities) who have joined the worst persecutors of the Jewish people.

Jews believe 1) Messianic Jews are not Jews. 2) Messianic Judaism is the segment of Christianity that is most devoted to destroying Judaism, and that Messianic Jews do so by stealth and by deliberately misrepresenting Judaism.

Do you agree with them? If not, so what?

Oh the offense to you of Christians lighting up a Christmas tree with an Angel or Star (of Bethlehem) on top, and a manger scene underneath, to celebrate Christ's birth. You think it would be so much better if Christ were removed from Christmas (just like most Antichristians want). Your objection is especially hypocritical considering that modern Jews have adopted the star of Moloch, the golden calf, to represent themselves.

I celebrate Christmas as the european-christian cultural observance that it is. There is no law against celebrating any day, but I find that "some" christians (like yourself) don't have the same grace towards messianic jewish observances that can actually be found in the scriptures. It is the very definition of legalism to make one's moral code mandatory on others.

Just because the european version of Christianity has invented new holidays not found in the scriptures, doesn't make them biblical nor "holy" in a biblical sense. You do realize that many CHRISTIANS don't celebrate it because of it's pagan origins, right? It was illegal in some of the original American colonies.

Again....your ignorance is showing because you aren't willing to consider anything but your own bias and prejudice.

How could a Christian not think Jews are guilty of legalisms, especially when those legalisms get in the Jew's way of accepting Christ?

In truth, there is much more legalism in Christian denominational doctrines and various morality practises (no dancing, no drinking, no this, no that) ...and you don't seem to know the difference between legalism and the instruction of Torah.

But the biggest obstacle to Jews coming to faith is committed by Christians themselves with the kind of baloney you are posting here being a small representation of arrogant attitudes rampant in the so-called church.

[Guest yod]

The word 'Easter' is only in the KJV because they didn't have another word to translate into Passover.

Sure they did!?

They could have used the word "Passover" but chose not to. Just like they could have used "assembly" or "community" but King James disallowed it, in favor of european ecclesiastical language and "church" was inserted into the translation instead.

Some Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) have persecuted Jews. And some Jews have returned the favor. The exact opposite is true as well though, the most obvious example being during the Holocaust. Christian believers hid Jews from the Nazis. So in a certain sense, we're even.

Did you know that Germany produced more christian theologians than any other nation during the 1930s while Hitler was rising to power?

Out of 14,000 churches in Germany less than 800 protested Hitler's race policy. In countries like Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Romania, Hungary, Greece, (etc) it was MUCH worse.

Yes, there were certainly heroic christians who WENT AGAINST WHAT THE CHURCH WAS APPROVING in Germany, either openly or through their silence....but the scales were hardly balanced or even. Unfortunately, it hasn't changed a whole lot in some of those countries still today.

The Gospel is not Greek-ish as you suppose, but it was written in Greek primarily. Why do you consider the Gospel to be Greek in nature? It the Gospel Aramaic-ish because some of the early Gospels were written in Aramaic? Is Revelation a Greek book because John wrote in Greek, but overlaid Hebrew thought on what he wrote?

Why do you think the all gentiles were called "greek" by Y'shua and the Apostles? I don't think you understand what they meant by it.

"Greek" is a spiritual position of being influenced by Greco-philosophy and practise. We, in the western world, are born into it and "renewing our mind" means we unlearn the ways of the (greco) world.

You are NOT the most hated people on the earth, despite what you may think Yod. Believers in general are.

I'm not jewish

And I'm also not going to ignore the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be as a christian. The religion known as Christianity has historically been persecuting Jews, both messianic and non, for 2,000 years. That is a sad fact that will continue until we recognize and confess it, and we should call it what it is. Bigotry, prejudice, racism....hatred.

[Ariux]

The whole pine tree thing is Germanic paganism, I agree. Likewise with Ishtar, which should be Pesach, and was in early Christianity. The word 'Easter' is only in the KJV because they didn't have another word to translate into Passover. The Greek word remains the same.

There is nothing pagan about a tree, per se. There is nothing pagan about Christians using trees in their celebration of Christ's birthday. A view to the contrary seems to me to be the very essence of legalism - and hypocrisy. Those who object to Christmas trees embrace all sorts of things of pagan origin - and, they don't care.

Some Christians (or people claiming to be Christians) have persecuted Jews. And some Jews have returned the favor. The exact opposite is true as well though, the most obvious example being during the Holocaust. Christian believers hid Jews from the Nazis. So in a certain sense, we're even.

Jews returned the favor? You mean like after Jesus went around getting the Romans to crucify Jews, only then did Jews do it to Jesus? After the Christians stoned many Christians, only then did Jews start stoning Christians? You mean after the Christians turned Rome against the Jews, only then did Jews turn Rome against Christians? Fast forward to today, Jews are persecuting Christians, but I don't see Christians persecuting Jews. Jews oppress Christians in Israel and powerful Jews in America are busy creating laws that are taking away our religious freedom out of hatred of Christianity.

The Gospel is not Greek-ish as you suppose, but it was written in Greek primarily. Why do you consider the Gospel to be Greek in nature? It the Gospel Aramaic-ish because some of the early Gospels were written in Aramaic? Is Revelation a Greek book because John wrote in Greek, but overlaid Hebrew thought on what he wrote?

We have no early Gospel written in anything but Greek. What is Hebrew thought?

You are NOT the most hated people on the earth, despite what you may think Yod. Believers in general are.

Who's doing this hating of Christians?

[Guest yod]

Fast forward to today, Jews are persecuting Christians, but I don't see Christians persecuting Jews.

then you are blind

Jews oppress Christians in Israel and powerful Jews in America are busy creating laws that are taking away our religious freedom out of hatred of Christianity.

AND slanderous. "Jews" aren't taking away religious freedom, "liberals" are.

We have no early Gospel written in anything but Greek. What is Hebrew thought?

Hebrew thought is practically the polar opposite of greek philosophy, and it was jews who wrote the newer covenant scriptures in greek for the greek world to understand their hebraic concept of the One True God.

Evidently, it didn't help enough people understand things outside of their greek paradigm...

[nebula]

A Messianic Jew IS a Christian. One of the problems that some believers have is Jewish believers segregating themselves as 'Messianic Jews'. There IS no Jew or Gentile in Christ. We are all Believers. And unfortunately, there are some Jewish Believers who do upon examination of their teachings, give off a Judaizer appearance, even if they are not in truth. That's something Jewish Believers do have to be careful of, just as Gentile Believers have to be careful of being anti-Semitic. If we would just be Believers period, these problems would soon disappear.

That would only work if we can get rid of all our other labels -

Catholic

Baptist

Methodist

Evangelical

Pentecostal

etc.

[nebula]

Christians persecuted Jews? Please don't forget that it was the apostate Messiah-rejecting Jews who persecuted fledgling Messianic believers with Roman help in the First century.

Jewish persecution of the followers of Jesus is a drop in the bucket compared to what "Christians" have done to Jews since 70AD.

It's one of the reasons for AD 70.

Rome could care less what Jews did to Christians. That was about Jews rebelling against Rome.

In fact, one of the main if not the, main reason Gentile Christians distanced themselves from Judaism and the Jewish tenants of their faith was to avoid being likewise threatened by Rome.

That's no excuse for Christianity to turn the tables

I agree - and especially not to keep blaming the Jews for what happened in the first century AD!

[Ariux]

"JEWS" aren't taking away religious freedom, "liberals" are.

In the 2008 presidential election, 8 out of 10 Jews voted for Obama, even knowing Obama's pro-Islam sympathies. The other 2 who voted for McCain is no proof of being for religious freedom or conservative. When it comes down to it, Jews tend to be very liberal and have very disproportional influence in our government. Take the Supreme Court for example, 33% is Jewish and they are 100% liberal, ignoring the Constitution to oppress Christianity and freedom. You might even say that Liberalism itself is a Jewish-led movement.

Back in the USSR, I mean Israel, Messianic Jews will testify to the persecution they face from Jews. Most Evangelical Christian groups refrain from attempting to spread the Gospel in Israel because of Israeli hostility, in spite of these Christians being critical to Israel's financial support from the US.

So, where are Christians persecuting Jews, or Messianic Jews?