Isaac (saved) vs. Esau (unsaved)

[other one]

that might be too important to be probablyin' about it.

[apologia828]

It was probably due to His foreknowledge that God was able to make up His mind about Esau and Jacob.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not?

Edited September 29, 2011 by apologia828

[apologia828]

It was probably due to His foreknowledge that God was able to make up His mind about Esau and Jacob.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not?

Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will?

Wow! Is He too weak to give man free will? Is that really an argument? The Bible teaches that man has a will however that will is always subject to God's. The God of the Bible is an all powerful God who, as it says in Ephesians 1:11, "worketh all things after the counsel of his will".

You'll notice however that nowhere in Scripture does it say that man has a free will which can override God's will. A God who is not able to save because the man says no.

Besides, if you saw someone that was planning to jump off a bridge committing suicide would you just say "oh well, I'd love to save him but I can't override his free will to kill himself"??

[Bold Believer]

It was probably due to His foreknowledge that God was able to make up His mind about Esau and Jacob.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not?

Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will?

Can you show in Scripture where God gave anyone free will? The term isn't even used there, much less the concept. People have a problem with God being God.

[oak]

There are two comments that caught my eye and I would like to address each one. There are of course more but I do have a time limit.

Apologia states: What is this idea of God loving Jacob and hating Esau based upon? It's right there in the text. That God's purpose according to election might stand. Jacob was one of the elect and Esau was not! To read this any other way is simply dishonest. Stick to the text!

Yes, the text stands. But there are important things that one may want to consider when reading the text. God is a Righteous and A Just God and I hope we don’t attribute randomness to God.

Bold believer states: It is GOD who chooses. So much for "free will", there IS no such thing. God is sovereign, not man. There is no favoritism in the matter; God could only show favoritism if he based his saving criteria on conduct. But the two had equal slates. Neither had done either god or evil.

I think the statement about Esau and Jacob calls for patience and faith not a general blanket statement about free will. There are many examples of free will throughout the Bible. Here are a few. First did Cain kill Abel by God’s will? If so, why did God confront Cain? Also why does the Bible call us to faith and belief in Christ if we have no will. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

[stacey c]

John 3:16& 17

"For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

"For God came not to condemn the WORLD but that the \WORLD through Him might be saved"

sounds like a open invitation to me.

[oak]

Oh Apologia*, (correction from Shiloh - I instinctively wrote Shiloh and I apologize)

If life is a matter of predertermined vessels made by God, for starters, what role do you attribute to redemption? Also why do we pray."And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil." (Matt 6:13). Lastly what is the purpose of Judgement?

[Guest]

John 3:16 & 17

"For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"

"For God came not to condemn the WORLD but that the WORLD through Him might be saved"

sounds like a open invitation to me.

God's Will

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Man's Choise

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

Who Would Have Thought It

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14

[oak]

Thank you Frezno!

[apologia828]

Yes, the text stands. But there are important things that one may want to consider when reading the text. God is a Righteous and A Just God and I hope we don’t attribute randomness to God.

I don't see this as being a valid point. Why does the fact that God chose Jacob and not Isaac according to His own election attribute randomness to God? I believe God does all things according to His will as clearly stated in Ephesians 1:11. From your standpoint you can't agree with Ephesians 1:11 because according to your viewpoint man has a "freewill" completely independent from the will of God. I'm not trying to criticize, brother. I'm simply calling for consistency.

You brought up the example of Cain and Abel. Great example. Now, lets look at it through the lens of all the Scripture teaches us. Notice, I never said that man does not have a will. He does, but not a freewill. Cain due to the fall was a slave to sin and as it teaches us in Romans, sinners are incapable of pleasing God and must obey sin in it's lusts. Apart from the grace of God all Cain could do was sin. Look at what Roman 8:6-9 says about the sinner:

Rom 8:6-9

6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ASV

Here we see the difference between the sinner and the child of God although we were all born as sinners and continue to be sinners there is still a major difference. The sinner is an enemy of God, is not subject to the law of God, and cannot please God. What's the difference with the believer? One thing. The Spirit of God dwells in them! Grace is the difference and grace my brothers and sisters is 100% undeserved. It has nothing to do with Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, or you and your unbelieving neighbor. The difference is the grace of God so that not one of us could boast. God did it all, therefore Gods gets all the glory and His Word calls us to give it to Him. None of us sought God, none of us was good but God who is good had mercy on us! What a God He is! I praise Him even more for His divine election knowing how wretched I am.

Just because He has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and we do not comprehend the reason for His choosing does not make God random.

"For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life" "For God came not to condemn the WORLD but that the \WORLD through Him might be saved" sounds like a open invitation to me.

First of all, the original Greek does not say "whosoever" but "that those believing shall not perish". Check it out for yourself but regardless I completely agree with this Scripture. However, those that are the believing were elected to belief through the preaching of the Word. I'm sure you would agree that we should look at all Scriptures that discuss salvation to get a better understanding so let's look at John 3:16 along with two other passages.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. HCSB

So yes, I completely agree, whoever believes will receive eternal life but that eternal life was appointed unto them before the foundation of the world. It's right there in the text. The Greek for appointed is τεταγμενοι which means to arrange in an orderly manner, assign, dispose.

Another passage to analyze is John 10:25-28.

Jn 10:25-28

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. ASV

Does Jesus say you aren't my sheep because you do not believe in me? No, that would be an incorrect reading of the text. He says you don't believe because you are not my sheep. You are not part of my flock! If he had chosen our appointed them then they would believe and would be part of His sheep. As it says in verse 28, "I give them eternal life". If we don't interpret these passages this way then the words elected, appointed, predestined, chosen, foreordained, predetermined mean absolutely nothing and should be removed.

If life is a matter of predertermined vessels made by God, for starters, what role do you attribute to redemption? Also why do we pray."And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil." (Matt 6:13). Lastly what is the purpose of Judgement?

Ok, let me just say I am not a hyper-calvinist. I just want to make that clear. I believe God has created and planned all things with one perfect goal in mind. To bring glory to His name! Redemption was a perfect plan for God to demonstrate His awesome love. It is the means He has decided to use to bring His people.

We pray in general because 1)it's a command, 2)it's a time of communion our fellowship with the Lord and 3) we pray for things like deliverance from evil because it's a part of God's mean to provide us with that. He will obviously only give us what is of His will but we are told to ask.

Lastly, what is the purpose of judgement? I'm not saying that the evil committed by Pharaoh was not actually committed by Pharaoh. He still did it out of the evil desires of his heart and therefore still needs to be punished for that sin eventhough the Lord was in control of the entire event. We see this in other cases for example, when God moves the heart of the Assyrian king to attack Israel in order to punish them, even calling Assyria an axe or razor in the hand of the Lord (Isaiah 7:20). Or when God moved David to take a census, allowing satan to actually tempt David into doing so (2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1) God tempts none however He does uses secondary means to accomplish His will as can also be seen with Job. Had Job's situation happened to us we might have attributed the circumstances entirely to satan's doings however, Job declares God's total sovereignty saying "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away".

He is an awesome and powerful God brothers and sisters, so let's give Him the glory and worship that He deserves!