Women Pastors

[gypc]

Wow!!! I have to say that I'm in awe of some of the knowledge that has been displayed in this thread. I have more than enough info from both sides to study and pray about.

I did think of something very simple concerning authority alone. If Pres Bush is a christian then in God's eyes we are the same however on earth God put him in authority over me. Just because he's my brother, I can't just walk up to the White House and say "Let me in I'm gonna talk to my bro". Be it that all authority is set up by God, if a king is saved he is my brother yet on earth and by God, I am not equal with him because God put him over me so now I must become a faithful servent to the king. When we get to heaven, it will be different.

Look, we all have our own thoughts and our theoligy however in the last year, the LOrd has shown me that I was wrong in some of my thinking. I want to know the truth, I hunger and thirst for it. I was actually taught that if I say "if it is God's will" then my faith is weak. The Lord showed me in his word that I was taught wrong. Praise God, I'm free from one more thing.

This is the reason I brought up this subject. To learn His truth. Some of the stuff that I've learned could offend me or could set me free. I choose the latter.

One thing that I've learned is God loves me more than my ministry.

In his love,

Brian

[Work in Progress]

Koppen, it seems you want to put forth all of your beliefs, state them as fact and state what is "right, period", but if anyone dare to question your statements and "proof", and point out where Scripture contradicts what you are saying, or even just offer their opinion also, you go into a diatribe about rude posters and claim you were insulted. No offense, but that isn't honest discussion.

Super Jew has answered your points with very valid discussion, using Scripture and logic and has made excellent points. I am very interested in your answers to them, and I hope to see an answer to the question:

"But I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man, but to be in quietness" (1 Tim. 2:12)

How do you reconcile just this one verse with the 5 examples you used? Either this verses is not right - it contradicts the examples you gave (And therefore, the Bible is not the inerrant word of God) - or the examples you gave are flawed. You simply cannot have it both ways. Just something to consider.

[larryt]

Koppen, it seems you want to put forth all of your beliefs, state them as fact and state what is "right, period", but if anyone dare to question your statements and "proof", and point out where Scripture contradicts what you are saying, or even just offer their opinion also, you go into a diatribe about rude posters and claim you were insulted. No offense, but that isn't honest discussion.

Super Jew has answered your points with very valid discussion, using Scripture and logic and has made excellent points. I am very interested in your answers to them, and I hope to see an answer to the question:

"But I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man, but to be in quietness" (1 Tim. 2:12)

How do you reconcile just this one verse with the 5 examples you used? Either this verses is not right - it contradicts the examples you gave (And therefore, the Bible is not the inerrant word of God) - or the examples you gave are flawed. You simply cannot have it both ways. Just something to consider.

I have never seen nor heard a woman "pastor" preach on this verse.

LT

[Shelby]

As for the last post, I will preach on that verse after God develops that sermon and I will try to remember to send you a copy when I am done.

Second, I come back after 12 hours and poor Kelli has been put through the ringer. Some on here are bent on breaking her, and I applaud her for standing strong in the Lord and not letting that happen. I was reading and getting very heated and frustrated and can't say that I would have handled everything as well as she did.

Someone asked me for proof, scripture to back up my GOD GIVEN calling and interpretation. You know, I am not going to scripture pick. And that is exactly what is happening. People are picking and choosing scriptures to defend their stance. I find that highly disrespectful to the word of God to pick and choose verses here and there. Yes, context is important, and NO God does not contradict himself, but he is only contradicting your interpretation of what you are picking and choosing. I have seen no more than 5 sentences to support your stance. What about the message of the WHOLE BIBLE?????

Again, SJew I have no reason to defend myself to you. It is apparent the argumentative spirit you have brought to this discussion. We were just stating before you entered that we were so happy to have had such a heathly discussion without questioning fellow believers integrity and basically calling them liars.

For those who told Kelli to leave if she couldn't hack it are just a bunch of bullies it seems. That is definitely not playing nice. I am married, and when my husband and I have a difference of opinion we definitly do not throw accusations and try and pick fights to belittle eachother. That is not a healthy discussion. We listen to what eachother has to say, and state our take on things, and then we discuss how to either come to a compromise if need be or an understanding to agree to disagree, or sometimes one or the other is swayed after respectfully listening to the pther person. (And no I am not going to go and quote every mean and disrespectful thing said here. You have eyes, go and read with an open mind and try and put yourself in Kelli's position)

All this bickering and "yeah right! give me proof", "then you don't believe scripture is from God", "if you can't take the heat get out". (these are not direct quotes, just my interpretations of the tone of many of the posts in the last 12 hours)

It is my take that some of you have hijacked a perfectly healthy discussion to argue. Well I will not argue.

Like Kelli, I feel just as strongly that God has lead me to my understanding and if anything has confirmed it more through this awful bashing thread. I am a woman after God's heart, and it is obvious that it is not in this thread so I would like to bow out. (We'll see if that happens LOL)

MHO

[apothanein kerdos]

Wow, that is the ultimate cop out. Let's examine your post:

1) You say I have an argumentive spirit.

A person who has this spirit would argue with absolutely everything put forth and would easily take the thread onto other issues. A person with this spirit has to be right on everything. I ignored a lot of what was said and gave it to Kelli, saying she was right and focused on one main issue. I did not post multiple scriptures or multiple articles all at once while ignoring what everyone else said. I am in the pursuit of thruth and stand on the absolute Word of God. If this makes me arguementative, then so be it. Either way, what you accuse me of does not make my points any less valid.

2) You do not have to answer to me.

You're right and wrong on this. Ultimately you do not have to answer to me. However as a sister in Christ I am compelled to keep you accountable to the Word of God. The fact is you're violating the word and declaring it "called by God". That is a lie, plain and simple. A person cannot have a calling of God that violates the Word. A woman cannot be biblically called by God to have authority over men. The two are mutually exclusive. This has been proven and the only thing you've come back with is that we've attacked you or Kelli or put her through the ringer or have been arguementative. If this is the case, then please provide us quotes so we can apologize. If you can't find quotes, then drop this issue and get back to the debate at hand.

3) I have been scripture picking.

You say this yet do not validate it. You do not explain how I am scripture picking. I have explained every single scripture brought forth, so how is this scripture picking?

4) God is contradicting our interpretation.

Prove how our interpretation is off. And no, there are much more than five verses. Many of the Pauline letters show that men have an authoritative role over women, this two verses just happen to come right out and give us the proper function within church. There is only one chapter in the Bible dedicated to how a overseer or pastor should act and (notice this) be qualified. Yet we follow those. Since when did lack of scripture constitute a non-valid belief? Again, how is our interpretation off? You have yet to show this.

I think this should suffice for now. I hope you can answer at least those four points and we can move back to the issue.

[Kabowd]

Again, SJew I have no reason to defend myself to you. It is apparent the argumentative spirit you have brought to this discussion.

Whoa, hold up. He is one of the few who has tried to address the issues and post substantial content in this thread. As opposed to others who have become HIGHLY emotional and should've stopped posting LONG ago. As I have seen, he and God-Man have remained very calm and gracious, responding to questions and answering them...all while being accused of being insensitive, harsh, and argumentative.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I am so tired of seeing ppl over-react everytime they are questioned. If you can't handle defending what you believe or are highly emotionally attached to an issue...don't enter a discussion and then explode all over other ppl. This is a discussion board.

If you will step back and take a look at the topic you can see that some became highly defensive when Scripture was put forth. And instead of addressing it biblically and seeking truth they/you became very very defensive and emotion became involved. It's extremely unfair for you guys to become defensive and then blame everyone else for "attacking" you. If anyone was attacked in here, it was me ..but that issue has been dealt with and I got over it. I'd like to encourage some of the rest of you get over it too.

Peace,

Tess

[Guest Called]

I would like to encourage everyone to read the thread George started on the dangers of a lopsided message. It seems that it can become very easy to give all truth and no grace. Sometimes it is good to be reminded of the balance we need to maintain when posting...Here is the link...

LINK

God Bless,

Debbie

Sorry to hijack the thread! Carry on!

[Shelby]

The fact is you're violating the word and declaring it "called by God". That is a lie, plain and simple.

Thus is your stance, and I have no reason to continue in this conversation because it is obvious that neither of us are getting anywhere, and this is definitely not edifying God or His church.

I could also care less about this issue and hold no strong beliefs on it. It's a clear cut issue as far as I'm concerned so I haven't spent too much time wondering about it.

This was stated by you early on in this thread. And I feel the same really. Just the polar opposite. It has never been and will not be an issue for me. It has never been a question in my mind that I am called to be a minister. I do not need your validation, nor do I need to prove to you anything. God has only solidified his calling on my life, and confirmed that I am following His will, by using His word and His Spirit, and through much prayer.

SJ - It has never been my intent to defend myself, and I choose not to. Weak or whatever else you want to throw at me, will not be sufficient to make me compromise what I know God has laid on my heart. May God give you Grace in your understanding.

[keslc]

Bob, Shelby, Called, KMB, Naomi3, and others I may be forgetting who posted in a similar vein are right on the ticket! I think the thing to remember is that it is GOD who is in authority! He will lead those who are willing and listening into the positions HE has intended for them to be in. One of my favorite stories is about Jesus and the woman at the well. She was a willing proclaimer of the truth of Christ and many were saved because of her testimony. If she were doing something wrong, Jesus would have corrected her. Just as He would correct us when we go into territory not intended for us. My husband and I are called into ministry and because we are listening to the Lord, we are working as a team in our ministry and God is using us. I do preach, almost every Sunday, with one of the other ministers (who is a man). I resisted doing it for so very long, even though I know God wanted me to and the other minister was asking me to share. THAT WAS DISOBEDIENCE! I got a direct command from God and resisted because I worried what "people" would say or think. As said many times before in other threads, God will convict us of wrongdoing and He will never lead us into disobedience when we are seeking HIM.

I also want to clarify that this has absolutely nothing to do with equality or women's rights or pride or any other mumbo jumbo. I am a servant of the living God and only seek to glorify HIM and do what HE asks of me. I was not begging to speak to the congregation by any means, I refused to actually at first. And that refusal put a wedge in my walk with the Lord. Once I SUBMITTED TO GOD'S AUTHORITY, that wedge was removed. That doesn't mean we ignore passages in the Bible discussing women at all. But as stated before we must look at them in context, in prayer, and as a whole.

The above is a previous post from just for your reference.

I have refrained from posting because I knew this topic would get heated (as it always does) and I did not want to get wrapped up in emotion and defensiveness as I tend to do, so I waited, came back today and read through the posts. I see a problem here, which I think Called addressed a few posts back about our messages being very lopsided. Many are trying to "prove" their points over and over with a lot of scripture quoting, lessons in greek, referrals to such things as "accountability" and so on and we are forgetting to listen to one another and pray for one another. Why are so many trying to "out do" each other? I think we would all be able to agree on a few things:

1. We love the Lord

2. We believe the Bible is true and is the inspired Word Of God , without error or contradiction

3. We are all but mere humans and not one of us can claim exclusive rights to all understanding of all things in the Bible, so naturally there will be different ideas regarding passages in the Bible.

4. We all seek to gain more understanding of God's Word and we all want to live for Him.

Agreed? If so, then I think we can all also agree that the promises within the Bible are true. God promises us that if we seek Him He will guide and direct us. (Proverbs 3:5-6, Psalms119:105, psalms 72:24, John 16:13, just a few verses in regards to this) I know that I sincerely seek Him and long to be inside of His will. The place He has led me to is a position in ministry which includes standing behind a pulpit. I am not "in charge" per se, so I am still under submission to those in authority over me in my church (which I think every single person in the universe who is in ministry finds themselves under some other authority and ultimately God's authority) Some say this cannot be of God because it contradicts their interpretation of certain scriptures, well, please do not be so bold as to say you know the sincerity of my heart. Also, I do not see this as a contradiction because I am led through my study of the scriptures, and prayer and petition to the Holy Spirit and I see those scriptures differently (I happen to feel that context and cultural understanding are very important when reading God's word). I do not believe my Lord and Saviour will lead me to disobedience. That would be a contradiction to me and something that God will not do.

I hope I was able to speak without hurting anyone or causing any more tempers to flare, that is not what I want. I just think there needs to be more grace, as brought up earlier and less demonstrations of head knowledge and emotion.

[Shelby]

Thank you Katie. You always have such a wonderful way of bringing things back into perspective.

I agree. No one except for an independant church does not answer to someone higher. And in my Church right now there is a man in charge (on an international level). But 10 years ago we had a woman, who did a marvelous job. We often do have women in charge in more local levels. But it all ends up at you and God and since I have no quams about that relationship regarding this subject I have no need to defend myself or my stance. GBU all!