Women Pastors

[ServingHim]

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 1 Cor 14:33-36

I don't think this agrees with Bob's teaching of what he thinks Jesus meant ... that men and women ALIKE are called in Matt 28:18. Pauls says women should KEEP SILENT...that probably doesn't mean they shouldn't share their faith and love of Christ with others, but they are NOT to PREACH. People who ordain women are simply disobeying what the Word says!

[Orr v'emet]

is there ANY example of ANY woman in a teaching AUTHORITY position in scripture? If so, where is it?

You may want to go back and read among the first few pages...these were all addressed.

Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I guess I fail to see where this is exclusive to males. Jesus gave this order to every believer....man and woman alike. 

where does it say man and women alike. You are adding to scripture!

SH, with all due respect, we are all, man and woman alike, called to go and preach the gospel. The bible is meant for all believers not just men.

[Orr v'emet]

Yes, that would have been me, and I was simply using a comparison in reasoning.

As far as you making your 4 or 5 Scriptures statement, I can only say ONE would be enough, if it was God's Word, so 4 or 5 should seem like an abundance.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Perhaps one should be careful in choosing one scripture on it's own to stand on. You have to take into account scripture as a whole. ( I'm sure you didn't mean that though.)

[apothanein kerdos]

is there ANY example of ANY woman in a teaching AUTHORITY position in scripture? If so, where is it?

Yes and no. There is no example of where a woman had spiritual authority over a man in a church setting mainly because this would contradict Paul's message. However, there are numerous examples of women in authority positions and even of women who spread the Gospel and Word of the Lord.

Pauls says women should KEEP SILENT...that probably doesn't mean they shouldn't share their faith and love of Christ with others, but they are NOT to PREACH. People who ordain women are simply disobeying what the Word says!

This is where I disagree with my own camp. First, in silence has already been covered. To refresh you it means living a life of submission basically. However, women can and often times are called to preach from the pulpit. This doesn't give them any authority at all. Also, ordaining a woman as a ministry should be mandatory if she is in the ministry with her husband. A women is in the ministry with her husband whether we want her to be or not. Also, in the traditional sense, ordaining is from God and not from man. Thus, I disagree with the Southern baptist (my denomination) in not ordaining women. I think if the woman is married to a minister she needs to be ordained.

You may want to go back and read among the first few pages...these were all addressed.

Careful KMB, it was addressed by both sides, and if I remember correctly, those supporting female authority were unable to respond

SH, with all due respect, we are all, man and woman alike, called to go and preach the gospel. The bible is meant for all believers not just men.

I agree with this. Often times those who believe women cannot be in authority take the belief to far and prohibit teaching and proclaiming the gospel. If this is against the Bible, I fail to see why Paul didn't say so when refering to Tabitha and Priscila.

Perhaps one should be careful in choosing one scripture on it's own to stand on. You have to take into account scripture as a whole. ( I'm sure you didn't mean that though.)

Well, I believe that I have and I hope others have too on this issue. While we cannot stand on one interpretation of scripture that contradicts all others, we also can't ignore scripture simply because "there isn't enough" in our eyes. I mean, most of the doctrine in Christianity can only be supported by 4 or 5 verses.

[Orr v'emet]

While we cannot stand on one interpretation of scripture that contradicts all others, we also can't ignore scripture simply because "there isn't enough" in our eyes.

Agreed!

Thus, I disagree with the Southern baptist (my denomination) in not ordaining women. I think if the woman is married to a minister she needs to be ordained.

My membership is currently with a Southern baptist church and this is one of many things I don't see eye to eye with them on...besides what's the harm in going to Disney World?

[apothanein kerdos]

My membership is currently with a Southern baptist church and this is one of many things I don't see eye to eye with them on...besides what's the harm in going to Disney World?

LOL

Ref: Paranoia Paranoia

Oh well, Southern baptist, the ultimate paradox, so close in essential doctrine yet so far on smaller issues.

[Shelby]

First I don't care if someone judges me because I know they aren't my judge.  So I am not taking any of this personally, because though most of you, in the nicest way, think I am against God's word and a false teacher.  SOOO I will bow out.  I refuse to defend myself to any of you. 

I think we have really lost sight of a Holy Discussion.  I am so tired ofd explaining and reexplaining over and over again.  I am done.  I am just tired of the same old argument, "It goes against God's Word!"  Well you have shown me no more than 4 or 5 scriptures pertaining to this, and as I studied them in context, praying for discernment, I am comfortable with my belief.  To compare me to a gay person, is just, well I can't find words strong enough.

I am done.  Have a wonderful life all of you.  And I pray that God will open your mind and soften your heart.

Again, Shelby, it's terrible to refute a theological finding just because it only has 3 or 4 scriptures behind it. If this were the case, the entire doctrine of the Trinity would collapse as there are only two or three verses that actually pertain to it. Likewise, many doctrines within the Christian faith would be obliterated with this idea. It's not that we draw theology from one scripture. We look at many scriptures and get the idea.

You can say you've prayed over the scripture, but I will be blunt and say you are simply being hard headed. God does not go against His Word.

Also, no one is comparing you to a "gay person". We're simply saying that the logic you use to discount the interpreation of scriptures we offer leaves open justification for a homosexual to use them as well, or an adulterer, or anyone else. If we are able to say, "Regardless of what scripture says, I feel God is calling me" and offer up absolutely no alternative interpretation to the scriptures, then we leave open this indefensible gap in which anyone can now use this excuse.

I was saying that I believe those scriptures address demeanor and behavior more than address "requirements" in ministry positions. Please re read my post, right now, I can think of no better way to re word it.

The problem with this is that it would take us out of the context of 1 Timothy. Paul works his way from avoiding false teachers, to propert attire of women, and then to how authority should be handled. What Paul is teaching is women should be submissive in church and not hold authority over a man. It's very black and white and to this date I have yet to see any biblical arguementation around it. It usually resorts to unprovable historical context or feelings/callings.

How am I not under submission to my husband if he agrees, encourages, and wants this too? (just for clarification, I am not ordained by our church, I did not go to seminary (yet, my husband and I plan on going together and becoming co-pastors as is usual in our church) but I and another man at our church preach on Sundays during our breakfast program (which anyone is welcome to and we get a lot of homeless or transient people) and then he leads a prayer circle for men and I for women.

See, to me, this doesn't appear as if though you have authority over men. To me it appears you are a pastor that teaches and the only authority you hold is over women. If that is the case, there is no biblical arguement against it. Now, if you hold authority over men, then yes, I have a problem.

I agree that women need to lead a life in which they (we, lol) practice modesty, discretion, non-dispruptive, etc. I don't see this as meaning they cannot hold positions within the church, only that it should not be about causing a fuss and for purposes of self-glorification and upheavel within the body.

I think this is where you begin to mix my beliefs with a legalistic belief. Often times people here us teaching against female authority and they think we're banning women from speaking completely. My beliefs, according to the Bible, are as follows:

* Women are not to hold authority over a man within the church

* Women should not be the final human authority within the church

* Women should never be in a position to mentor (teach on a close basis) a man or a group of men

Other than that, I'm all for women having authority in certain areas (and would prefer them to), teaching, preaching, ect. Now, again, you need to look at the rest of the verse to get this. Simply drawing this conclusion off of one thing I said is not a good way to go about it.

This is apples to oranges. Scripture is clear that those in ministry need to be above reproach. A lesbian or gay is living a lifestyle of deliberate sin, not above reproach at all. Being a woman does not automatically mean you are deliberately living in sin.

We recognize it, however the same thought process that is presented could be used by anyone living in sin. If we disregard scripture and do not offer a counter definition that holds water when examined and simply say we are called and go on our way, then this leaves justification for homosexuals, adulterers, ect to go into the ministry and be justified in doing so.

And with this I will say I will bow out of this discussion and no longer post again. There are some rooms that I enjoy and will continue to read and pray for those people, but no longer will I offer any more posts. I am really not sure if I will come back at all, but I am not able to say so right now because I am particularily hurting and feeling against coming back.

I cannot believe some of what I am hearing (of course I expected for not all to agree with me). You are trying to to convert me to your school of thought, and calling me a liar and hypocrite by saying that God COULD NOT call me.

I say judge me by my fruits.

It is obvious that Satan is a alive and well conquering peace and hope on these boards. I am tired of being beat down, and shunned by fellow believers. I am proud and priveledged to be called by God to minister to those who have ears to hear. Since there are too few on here to hear above the bickering and accusations, and name calling, I will find a better use of my time, and a better place for good fellowship.

It has really put a strain on my heart to be in this discussion. I have been praying night and day for God to reveal new truths to me for whatever purpose this discussion is for, and I feel I am lead to leave, and not continue to accept the abuse, and yes it is that, that I have been suffering. I cannot believe that I let a bunch of people, who say they are Christians, beat me down so much. I have tried to stay strong, but it has been a public beheading for me, and I cannot take it any more.

SJ & Tsth - You in particular have chosen to impose this allknowing, self righteous, manipulative, leading of questions to corner me and try and sematically trip me up. Well it hasn't worked. The only thing you have done is helped me to see that my calling is authentic and ordained by God. I cannot believe that some moderator hasn't stepped in to help this be a balanced discussion, not to mention fair. Sure you use nice, yet condescending comments, but all in all, you might have as well said what you really meant. (and sometimes did) It is obvious that you are stuck in your opinions and are bent on converting people to your school of thinking or to just condemn them to hell.

If I have learned one thing on this board, is I have made friends, and I have enjoyed many discussions, but there are a few people who seem to come in on every discussion and make it turn ugly and accusatory. As you questioned my heart, convictions, motivations, calling, and Christianity; you have only allowed us to see a reflection of your own.

I am a woman, who is called by God to preach the Good News to ALL people. And this calling is not of myself, but from God. I pray God will give you revelations in all of your lives, that you may see Jesus in eachother.

I just pray for those who have left for the same reasons, and for those who are being persecuted right now in other discussions and this one. It has definitely gone too far, I think that the fruitfulness of this discussion was over a long time ago.

Only for Jesus,

Shelby

[tsth]

Dear Shelby,

I find it interesting that in 20 some odd pages of posts and of 356 posts to this thread, I post only 6 and they were found to be troubling to you, so much so that you are leaving??? Are you sure there's not more to it than you are willing to say? Sometimes the Word can be convicting or refining with very little being said.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Nicks Girl]

I agree. You were trying to make us believe your ways of thought, and vice versa. I don't recall any "name calling" and I don't see where you were personally slammed.

The truth of the matter is, that when a person says they are a Christian and turns around and openly denies something that God has clearly spoken in HIS WORD, it causes me to question them, or when a person claims God has given a calling, which He clearly doesn't support. I'm sorry you are so offended and feel you need to go. I agree with Suzanne though, The Word is very convicting, and if you truly were comfortable with your ministry calling, and didn't care what we thought about it, why is it upsetting you so much that you have to leave? I don't understand that.

Thus far you haven't been able to respond to our questions and the scriptures that have been posted, other than saying you just feel comfortable with your position of authority. I do not wish to be condescending, but I believe as a Christian it IS my place to question another believer when they are saying they believe something the Bible has objected. I haven't tried to be closed minded about this. I truly have sought answers in the past to this question, and studied the verses in context, Koinh Greek, & expositional constancy. Women are clearly not supposed to be in authority over men in terms of church leadership. This command was imperative, not limited to the church that recieved the epistle. The reference to the apostle's reasoning for the command is Eve, the mother of all. If it is because of Eve that women recieve a different role in the church from God, how could her actions possibly limit the effect to the church recieving the epistle. Why would God command that of just that one church? God is unchanging, and for you to say that it is any different 2,000 years later is absurd. I didn't offer my own opinions, I merely stated what our Bible says. As it says, "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of the Lord stands forever." Therefore any modernistic ism or enlightenment or movement does not change an unchanging God. That means feminism, the women's liberation movement, etc, cannot and must not pervert the purity of God's Word, or His people.

[Work in Progress]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

This scripture definately means in demeanor, and action, which also means words. That is what Silence is, what quietness is.

Here is another scripture which we can relate to understanding this scripture more.

1 Cor. 14:34