Israel & the "rapture"

[Massorite]

It seems that everybody is over looking the fact that Jesus will come back twice within a seven year period.

Jesus coming back twice isn't fact though, it's interpretation. The more I study the Lords coming, the more I can't hold to a pre-trib view. Jesus is coming back once, when He does, the church is caught up with Him and the world is going to enter into judgement. We are exempt from Gods wrath, but not so sure if we are exempt from persicution.

I honestly wouldn't mind if what your saying is true. I've studied wanting to hold onto this view but had to go where scripture lead me. Can you provide scripture for this?

Ok you already have the scripture that tells us that we will meet him in the clouds. Here is the scripture that tells us that Jesus will fight the nations who have gathered against Isreal. IE ARMAGEDDON

Zechariah 14:1-5 " Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go forth. And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Makinga very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north. And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Here is more scripture to back up Zechariah 14:1-5. Revelation 19:11-21 "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[e] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,[h] 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Hope this will help.

[Guest]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

All since Christ must be in the new covenant of forgiveness of sin otherwise they will be destroyed under the old covenant that no man could keep. .... and the holy body of Christ is born Rev 12, the sons of God born to our mother heavenly Jerusalem....

The

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. Lamentations 3:21-24

Old

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Covenant

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

And The New

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Can There Be Any Doubt?

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalms 139:23-24

Can We Add Anything More To Salvation

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? Psalms 116:12

Than To Believe

I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:13

With Joy

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

____________

_________

______

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[goldust59]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

All since Christ must be in the new covenant of forgiveness of sin otherwise they will be destroyed under the old covenant that no man could keep. There are the 7,000 OT saints 1Kings 19:18,Romans 11:4 and die just before the seventh trump sounds in the earthquakeRev.11:13, just as they came out of their graves (Eze.37,Matt.27:52) in an eartquake at Jesus' resurrection when the debt had been paid, and the Spirit given to bring the breath of life back into them.

They are the whole house of old covenant Israel that God Reserved for Himself and says will be saved by grace and are alive to this day according to Roman 11:4.

Jesus went into hell and led many of the captives free that were still considered "alive" to God in the bosom of Abraham which is commonly known as "paradise" that Jesus spoke of when he said TO Day I will be coming into my kingdom for he had took back the dominion of the earth by his holy blood sacrifice and said "it is finished", and you will be with be with me in paradise. As we know he could not be talking about him and the repentant, believing sinner on his "right side" going into heaven for he did not ascend into heaven for 40 days. The seven thousand are devout Jews who of course will be keeping the law of Moses as best they can. The Bible tells us in Rev.10:7 that when the seventh trump sounds, the mystery of God, when the two witnesses finish their last call to assemble the congregations(Feast of Trumpets), the earthquake and the seven thousand OTsaints died and 1/10 tithes of the city falls (Day of Atonement), the seventh trump sounds and the holy body of Christ is born Rev 12, the sons of God born to our mother heavenly Jerusalem, are caught up on the Feast of Tabernacles where their earthly tents are changed in the twinkling of an eye to their heavenly tents, Satan is thrown down to earth for the last 3-1/2 years.

Are you saying that the 7000 saints of 1 Kings 19:18 are still alive today? When Paul makes reference to that passage in Romans 11:4 he is making a point that God had reserved a remnant of Israel just like He had reserved that 7000 at that time. We can see that in verse 5~ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

[Guest rabbirichie]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

Hi goldust59, ther is neither Jew or Greek in Christ. The catching away is for the Bride. The question then is, who is the Bride? Remember, not all who say Lord Lord are saved. Jesus is coming for His Bride. The Bride are beleivers filled with the Holy Spirit. If you have not the Spirit dwelling in you, your none of His (Romans 8:9). Also Matthew 25 speaks of ten virgins with oil and lamps. The oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the vessels are true beleivers that are filled with His Spirit. Ephesians 4 teaches us the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, meaning oneness with Jesus thorough the Holy Spirit. There is only one way to make the rapture/catching away. John 14, Acts 1 and 2 will show you the way if you are seeking the Holy Spirit. The speaking of tongues is the manifestation if the indwelling Spirit. The "Church" today for the most part does not or will not teach this tenet of the faith. I'm not saying those without the indwelling Spirit won't be saved, just not the Bride. This is true for Israel as well as all nations. He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

[goldust59]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

Hi goldust59, ther is neither Jew or Greek in Christ. The catching away is for the Bride. The question then is, who is the Bride? Remember, not all who say Lord Lord are saved. Jesus is coming for His Bride. The Bride are beleivers filled with the Holy Spirit. If you have not the Spirit dwelling in you, your none of His (Romans 8:9). Also Matthew 25 speaks of ten virgins with oil and lamps. The oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the vessels are true beleivers that are filled with His Spirit. Ephesians 4 teaches us the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, meaning oneness with Jesus thorough the Holy Spirit. There is only one way to make the rapture/catching away. John 14, Acts 1 and 2 will show you the way if you are seeking the Holy Spirit. The speaking of tongues is the manifestation if the indwelling Spirit. The "Church" today for the most part does not or will not teach this tenet of the faith. I'm not saying those without the indwelling Spirit won't be saved, just not the Bride. This is true for Israel as well as all nations. He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying.

Hi rabbirichie & welcome to Worthy!

I understand what you are saying, I'm just trying to understand God's plan concerning Israel & how it fits into the catching up.

Btw, I think there is a "catching up" , not a "catching away". I do not believe in the "catching up" being what is traditionally taught.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

Hi goldie,

Very excellent question.

It seems that most scholars, today, when teaching about the resurrection/rapture, they totally neglect the old covenant saints. It's like they have just been forgotten altogether, which is why I have brought them back into the picture in my book. They seem to overlook that we new covenant saints are grafted in with the old.

Many of the old covenant saints will be present at the rapture, especially His faithful servants and prophets. They will be among the dead in Christ, even though they lived before Christ came in the flesh. The old covenant saints were being saved under the law of Moses for 2000 years. Then Christ came and died and rose from the dead, and we new covenant saints have been saved in the age of grace for the last 2000 years.

But what most people don't realize is that Christ died once, for all, both old and new covenant saints. They were looking forward to the promises, while we are looking back, but He died once for all. They will not be penalized for living before He came in the flesh, and we will not be penalized for living after He died and rose again.

I go much deeper into this in my book, but in order to keep this short, I'll just post a couple of key passages.

1 Corrintians 10:1-4

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

So even though Christ was hidden, they were still in Him and looking forward to promises He came to fulfill. Now this next passage is very powerful as well, because it gives us a sneak peek at the wedding supper of the Lamb that will take place after the rapture.

Matthew 8:10-11

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Cheers

[Bold Believer]

Anyone who is a part of the Church, whether Jew or Gentile, will be taken up in the Rapture.

Parker, is the Jew in the Church of Jesus Christ? Just a thought.

The BELIEVING Jew is; the non-believing Jew is not, in God's eyes, they would be as Gentile unbelievers.

[NTMicaiah]

Israel and the rapture - this is an interesting topic. Romans 11:15 seems to me to be saying that what happens to Israel affects the whole world in a huge way. When Israel rejected Messiah God sent salvation to the ends of the earth. I believe that Jesus will return at the end of a seven year tribulation and that those already saved, both completed Jew and former gentile, will meet Him in the air. Then I believe that as Jesus continues down, in the company of those already saved, that all the remnant of Israel still living on earth will become believers and will live on the earth at the start of the millenium. "The child shall die one hundred years old" during the millenium.

May God put it upon our hearts to walk worthy of the calling we have received, with all lowliness and gentleness,

NTMicaiah

[JohnD]

God intended for Israel to evangelize the world for Christ. They rejected this by rejecting him. So for 2000 years the evangelism of the Gentiles has been going on anyway. And at the same time this is an attempt to provoke Israel to jealousy (so that they would return). What it will take for Israel to return will be their being duped by the false messiah, then betrayed by him once he is convinced the Christians are out of the way, and then the Great Tribulation will culminate with the armies of the world surrounding the few Jews who survive to that point and in a last desperate act... they will cry out to Jesus since everything else has failed and he will come from heaven on that note.

The rapture of believers will happen within days after the false messiah is convinced Christians have been exterminated. Revelation 13:5-10 is an interesting read about what will take place before the rapture.

Revelation 13:3-10 (NASB95)

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

Tracking down Christians is what 666 is all about. It will act as the perfect tracking system of those who will not accept the mark of the beast... who will be unable to buy or sell anything without the mark. That's the worst economic crisis possible. Christianity will go so far underground in hiding that we (they, actually, I am not cagey enough to avoid capture for 3.5 years) will be believed extinct before the rapture comes about.

Daniel 12:11-12 (NASB95)

11 “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

12 “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

From the abatement of Temple sacrifice there will be 1290 till the end. 1335 days from the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel is when the rapture will occur.

Date setting? No. We will not be sure when the 70th Week began until the sacrifices are abated.

Once the Church is raptured out the tables turn and what was a tribulation of wrath from the world and the devil against God will become the wrath of God against the devil and the world. And Israel will be the global persona non grata because the false messiah will renounce the Jewish Covenant he confirmed at the beginning of the 70th Week (Daniel 9:27**) and opt for Neo-Babylonianism which was started by his "Moses" (Nimrod) so many thousands of years ago. See Zechariah 5:5-11.

** he shall confirm THE COVENANT with the rabbiym (this is what the text says).

There are many prophetic clues that the beast will mislead Israel in the 70th Week. Matthew 24 comes to mind when Jesus warns about this time and says pray it's not on a sabbath day. When shomer shabbos has never taken precedent over fight or flight in all Jewish history. The ONLY way that statement makes sense is if the Jewish law is being enforced by Jewish leaders who do not think or believe anything is wrong with the abomination making the holiest place defiled... meaning they will be convinced he is the true Messiah. And that only means he will be Jewish.

All the more reason to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (their salvation see Ephesians 2:14).

[Guest yod]

oy, such confusion....

No one leaves the planet until a new one is created or they are thrown into the lake of fire, which might also be on the new planet.