Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

chesterton, give it up.

Even if we accepted your interpretation of this passage here just as you're presenting it, all it would do is reveal that even you don't accept the inescapable implication.

Many of those on the offical list of Popes were clearly and demonstrably immoral, impure and/or greedy. You youself have admitted as much.

If an offical vicar of Christ is leading the infallible one true church in all truth as an apostolic successor of Christ then they are getting into heaven, right?

So if these men were any of the following (immoral, impure or greedy) then they are idolaters without inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God, and yet you would claim they were Christ's vicar and a true apostle.

The works for salvation you're actually advocating, if you were being honest here, have nothing to do with avoiding being immoral, impure or greedy, but in conducting the works of the supposed holy sacraments.

So even if we were to accept how you've taken these verses out of context here and accept the conclusion you're trying to make, all that would mean is that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong.

Since you don't believe that, can you please give it a rest and at least try to be honest and consistent?

[Guest]

Faithful

I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. Psalms 89:1-4

Faithful

And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? Psalms 89:5-6

Faithful

God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? Psalms 89:7-8

[Guest shiloh357]

Hey! Shiloh357... Prasie the Lord in Jesus' name, our God and King!

Lets do a passage by passage dialogue then and see what happens... : )

I'll start with the first verse listed. Mt 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." And, just like it; Mk 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

So where does not lead to losing your salvation?

Lets look at these two passags this way. 1Jn3:14NAS "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death." And, 1Jn 4:7,8 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

1 Cor 13:5NAS Love..."does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered." Love does not take into accout a wrong suffered, so we see that if we love others, we are fulfilling the royal law of Christ. Our ability to forgive grows as our love grows as we abide in the vine just as the other fruits of the Spirit do. So that the Spirit that indwells us is working on our hearts to make our love for others to grow, just as Jesus, our example, loves us and gave himself for us, the just for the unjust.

While it may be crystal clear to you, I am not seeing your point and how those three above passages has anything to do with this discussion.

The forbidden fruit that I was speaking of is found in; Mt 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." This is an unforgiveable sin, so that even in the age to come, it will not be forgiven, ever.

That is referring to the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and is as such is not a "forbidden" fruit." You need more instruction on what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is. The sin against the Holy Spirit unpardonable because of its own nature: It consists in the rejection of way of salvation by Christ, in opposition to the fullest evidence and the only evidence that shall be given (Heb. 2: 3) The sin against the Holy Spirit consists in continual impenitence and unbelief. It is not an act, but habit. It is the calm, determined, and persevering rejection of Jesus Christ as the Savior of man, in opposition t all the testimony of His word and Spirit. Consequently, its nature is incapable of forgiveness. N on who is afraid of having committed this sin has done so; for its very nature is to have no fear on that account. It is committed and continued in delightedly and knowingly, where it is committed at al. Fear is not compatible with its nature

This is the forbidden fruit that will be possible to partake of even in New Jerusalem and the age to come. As long as we refrain from it, we will be choosing the Lord!

Sorry, but that is not in the Bible.

There will be no more faith or hope in this age since we have entered into our redemption and have obtained the promises and are now joined with the Lord being no longer absent while in our mortal bodies. I can't imagine anyone actually doing such a thing in a time when we will know even as we are known and are made to be one with the Lord just as Jesus is one with the Father, but that doesn't mean that its not possible, sadly.

Yeah, again that is just something you are making up and is not based on biblical truth. There is not going to be anyone blaspheming the Holy Spirit in the New Jerusalem. You need to read your Bible.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

The problem is that Paul is not talking about beleivers. His point is not that believers who do this will not get to heaven. He is referencing non-believers. Genuine believers would not be living that way in the first place.

But as always, you cannot quote a verse in the light of its context because your position won't hold up under competent hermeneutics.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

The problem is that Paul is not talking about beleivers. His point is not that believers who do this will not get to heaven. He is referencing non-believers. Genuine believers would not be living that way in the first place.

But as always, you cannot quote a verse in the light of its context because your position won't hold up under competent hermeneutics.

So you believe that a person who has no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ is saved?

OK.

Once again chesterton, is this honestly what you're trying to affirm?

Do you really believe and stand by the point you're making, and that no "immoral, impure or greedy person" will inherit the kingdom of heaven, or do you think that the works for salvation are something else entirely and that immoral, impure and/or greedy people can actually make it to heaven if they abide by the Catholic sacraments, like some of the official popes have done?

Are you being honest and consistent, and if so how is this not a total concession on everything else you've championed in the past?

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 02 November 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

chestertonrules, on 01 November 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

The problem is that Paul is not talking about beleivers. His point is not that believers who do this will not get to heaven. He is referencing non-believers. Genuine believers would not be living that way in the first place.

But as always, you cannot quote a verse in the light of its context because your position won't hold up under competent hermeneutics.

So you believe that a person who has no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ is saved?

OK.

No, that is not what I said. What I am saying is that Eph. 5:5 is not warning to Christians about losing their salvation. That is not the object Paul has in view.

How about eternal life? Is a person without eternal life saved?

Gal 6

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

That is a nonsensical question. The point Paul is making if you pay attention to the context Ga. 6:6 is written as a rebuke to people who are trying to be saved by works. They are "sowing to the flesh" in that they are trying in their own efforts in their flesh to please God in addition to faith in Christ. This is not written to people who are living in immorality and paganism. Quite the opposite, they are trying to please God in their flesh through their works.

In that verse "sowing to the flesh" means trying to earn salvation through personal effort and is a work of the flesh. Paul says the end of that effort is desctruction. Man, cannot work his way to God.

I find it ironic that you are using a verse from Galatians to support salvation by works, which was written to a Church as a rebuke for trying their efforts to attain salvation by works in addition to faith in Christ. Paul wrote that verse to rebuke the very doctrine you are trying to use that verse to support.

Romans 2

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

If you live according to your sinful nature are you saved?

I have answered that question numerous times Chesterson, but evidently you are reading impaired. I have always maintained that genuine follower of Christ will not live in sin or live according to the sinful nature. Those verses were written to Jews who wore their Jewishness on their sleeves and boasted in their keeping of the law. Doing good is the outgrowth the expected behavior of those who seek honor and glory. God is not giving them eternal life on the basis of what they did. Rather those works flow from a internal character.

The word in the Greek for persistence is hupomonē, and refers to a patient and obedient constancy It carries the connotation of remainging under someone's discipline and an acquiesence of the will to something that ordinarily one would natrually rebel against. Warren Wiersbe writes, "Keep in mind that these verses do not tell us how to be saved. They describe how God judges mankind according to the deeds performed in the course of life. Rom. 2: 7-8 are not talking about a person’s occasional actions, but the total purpose and drift of his life, the “life-choice” as William Newell describes it. People do not get eternal life by patiently seeking it; but if they are seeking for life, they will find it in Christ."

If we don't do what counts are we saved?

1 Cor 7:10 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

That would be verse 19. The mark of a genuine Christian is good works and obedience. But obedience stems from a grateful heart of faith. Works always follow faith. In Hebrews 11, everything was done "by faith." Faith is operative in nature. It produces corresponding behavior. You don't get saved by what you do. What you do evidences the authenticity of your profession.

[Guest shiloh357]

As I have said before, we are not saved by works alone or by faith alone. We are saved by faith working through love.

No, the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. See, when we understand that our salvation is the result of grace, then our focus remains on the cross. Your false Gospel places the focus on self and on trying to earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift and there are no works you can do to earn it in whole or in part. Salvation is not based on a synthesis of God's grace and human effort/merit. It is ONLY a free gift of God (Romans 6:23) "for the wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That is how we can alway recognize false teaching. If it takes you away from the cross, it is not from God. And your teachings are not of God. God is not in anything you have to say.

If you are at all depending your works for salvatoin, you are NOT an authentic Christian and you have NO part in Christ. Salvation is Jesus + zero.

Our faith and our works are only possible thanks to God's grace, without which we cannot be saved.

That is what I mean by taking the focus away from the cross. You are saying we need works AND faith to be saved and that only exposes your rank ignorance about Christianity. Everywhere works are mentioned in the NT, they are the product of faith in the life of a believer. There is not ONE NT believer who got saved because he was "good enough" or deserved salvation because of his works. You cannot be good enough to deserve salvation. That is why Paul says it is a gift.

If you think that you can lead a life of willful sin because you believe Jesus died for you and still go to heaven, then you haven't read the scriptures carefully enough.

If you think that you can earn your way to heaven by works alone, then you haven't read the scriptures carefully enough.

We must be saved by a living faith that cooperates with the grace of God.

That is akin to the Galatian heresy. They were trying to be saved by works in addition to faith in Christ. Your heresy ( and it is a heresy) is really another Gospel and it the same kind of false Gospel the Galatians had fallen for.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.

(Gal 1:6-8)

[enoob57]

God's Word teaches us the understanding by the Life of Jesus:

John 10:37-39

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me,

believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

NKJV

The works were of Love in the healing of people- evident, unarguable, factual in all that saw, believed them to be miracles,

so much so, that his enemies had to pervert their own hearts to the claim that it was satan who powered them!

Imagine a people who believed healing the poor and rich at no cost and no gain to be satan powered. This selfless gesture

of goodwill toward others being evil... In fact the way Christ did this was given to His Cousin, John the Baptist, as proof of

Who He was Matt 11:4-6 / Isa 35:5-6, Isa 61:1-3

The poor would have been significant to John the Baptist for He had saw the monied system of the temple

and his hatred for the ways of the Sadducee and Pharisee was documented Matt 3:7-9.

The true love of God finds the love of money abhorrent!

John 5:36

36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish —

the very works that I do — bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

NKJV

John 17:4-5

4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now,

O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

NKJV

There is no work we can do acceptable to The Father that was not first done by Christ... so when we ask Jesus to take our lives as Lord -> He will start living in us just as He lived in Himself and the works will be His and Ours -yet- in the depth of being we consider them to be all His; as we seem more witnesses than a source of their emitting! Our Lord is so wondrous and beautiful that in my nothingness, His Everythingness 'IS' my complete satisfaction... to carry within The Holy Spirit that resonates The Being of My Lord Christ so that when I see Him and He me we will be well acquainted as Friends and lovers of righteousness... shall I be found standing there on my own merit? NO-> I will be prostrate before The Lord of Glory weeping to be finally in His presence, as His deliverance "IS" made complete in me ! Love, Steven

[Botz]

There is no work we can do acceptable to The Father that was not first done by Christ..

This is true, but we must pick up our cross and follow him. We must follow Christ, not just acknowledge his achievment.

Matt 25

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Which is what Belivers in the L-rd Jesus do....it is a daily walk, and a walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

What a Believer doesn't do is to try and maintain his salvation by trying to do things that he hopes G-d approves of...this would be considered a work of the flesh.

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul was referring to works of the Jewish Law, not obedience to Jesus.

Yes, I know that. They were trying to be saved by works. Paul did not say that they were doing the wrong kind of works. He did not argue that salvation came from doing a particular variety of works. What people like you try to do is you dream up this notion that we are saved by good works, but not the works of the law. The problem is that the Bible does not make that kind of false dichotomy. "Works," 100% of the time in Scripture are understood within the framework of the law of Moses. There is not ONE good work mentinoed in the NT that is not contained in the law of Moses.

Jesus said that the entire law of Moses could be summed up in two categories: loving God and loving man. Love is commanded by the Law of Moses: You are to love the Lord your God with your entire Heart, soul and with all your strength. You are to love your neighbor as yourself. What does love look like? That love ethic is heart of the law of Moses, according to Jesus. You cannot "love" anyone and not keep the law and by extension you are obeying Jesus because Jesus did not define love apart from the law. In fact Paul defines keeping the law in connection to love:

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

(Rom 13:8, 10)

For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

(Gal 5:14)

Even James says that loving yoiur neighbor is fulfilling the law: If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

(Jas 2:8)

Do you think that you can be saved if you live a life of persistent disobedience to the commandments of Jesus?

You are deceiving yourself if you think your actions are irrelevant to your salvation.

I didnt say that works are irrelevant to salvation; far from it. I said that genuine salvation is evidenced in your works. If you are a genuine believer you will not live in persistent obedience to Jesus. The problem is that you cannot live obedience to Jesus in order to get saved. Obedience stems from the Christ living His life through you. That is the essence of authentic Christianity. It is not me striving to please God. It is Christ please God through me. Paul says in Rom. 8:4 the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us. It is Christ living within our hearts in the person of the Holy Spirit who fulfills the righteousness of the law.

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

But this verse is contrasting the unbeliever with the believer. The believer doesn't live habitually in the flesh. Yes we have moments when we act in the flesh, but this is referring to someone who lives a habitual life in the flesh. They will die because that is the fate of unbelievers. They live in the flesh. How does a believer put to death the deeds of the flesh? He does so through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is an outgrowth of his salvation. That is what saved people do. No one can put the deeds of the flesh to death in order to get saved. Rather, it is an authentic Christian who, as a result of salvation, puts to death his former fleshly life. It is part of the process of sanctification that occurs AFTER salvation and is the product of salvation; not the means of obtaining salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

That passage if you follow the context, is not those who follow after false teachers after having heard the truth. It is not talking about Christians losing salvation. Peter is talking about those who heard the truth mentally assent to the truth, but turn away from it and follow after false teachers. You need to go back to verse one in that chapter as it sets the context.

Luke 8

8:13 "And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; but these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

8:14 "And the seeds which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

8:15 "And the seeds in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I fail to see what this parable has to do with the issue.

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

You are only quoting part of a senctince and you are cutting Paul off before he has completed his full thought (which reflects your lack of skill in handling the Bible). You need to quote this correctly:

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

(1Ti 1:18-20)

Paul has disfellowshipped Hymenaeus and Alexander from the community (not from salvation). The purpose is reform them and discipline them. Paul nowhere says they are not saved. He wants them to learn not to blaspheme.