Praying for the Dead

[oak]

Recently, a very good friend of mine who said, at first he left Eastern Orthodoxy – years ago - for a non-denominational church, has know admitted to being an OSAS believer. Well, I’m worried because he has a very addictive in nature and even believes that in the parable of the wedding feast, the man who is cast out is still saved in Matt. 22:11-14. The hopeful purpose of this post is I want people to share their different perspectives on the topic.

Anyway, we (my friend and I) both chose the topic of praying for the dead since it is not one of the key points of Salvation. The Orthodox Faith and the Catholic Church accept this practice (as well as some other religions) but for different reasons. Due to the wealth of information, I chose mainly to focus on scripture used by the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, since there is a lot of tradition involved in this practice. I will say two things about the tradition part. First is that it reminds me a lot of Fresno Joe’s quote of “let’s put our bodies up against the sinners to prevent them from falling into hell” (I’m paraphrasing). Secondly I found that before Christ, Jews would put up shrines to the prophets and prayed for the dead; I don’t quite remember where I read it or if it is even true. Note, I will comment on the scripture using my own words to avoid plagiarism. In regards to Maccabees, I will source it.

In terms of Macabbees in the Council of Carthage 397 AD, Christians agreed on the texts to be used in the Bible – it included the 2 Maccabees’ books the second Maccabees book was originally written in Koin Greek – unusual for the Old Testament. Since I don’t know Greek, Serbian, Armenian etc., but have only Church Slavonic Bibles at home, I will resort to an English text: “But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” 2 Maccabees 12:45 (NRSV) – source. I use this to illustrate that certain religions use this as a justification for praying for the dead. You will probably not find it in your Bible.

Ok, now we come to the heart of the matter. I always seek out priests that have the love in them. One who had chemotherapy and a hard day confessing yet found time for me - and though tired, smiled and took me out for coffee; another after a hard fast waited to talk to me rather than filling himself with food. They are the minority. When I ask them about praying for the dead they echo the same sentiment. “…for “love is strong as death….” Song of Solomon 8:6 They believe that the law set limits but Christ showed that through faith they are open ended or there is no end. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” Jn 14:12 You may ask what does this they have to do with prayer for the dead? Well they actually believe that with Christ drawing us to open ended love, that they can pray to Him for a departed person that has never found Him and actually help them. Perhaps they are child-like optimists. But with them I know Christ conquered death and made love stronger than death. Besides the Bible reminds us, we often don’t pray correctly. “For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.” Rom 8:26

Now the serious and stern priests would probably draw me towards, 2 Timothy 1:16-18: “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus…May the Lord grant him mercy on that Day! –and you know the service he rendered at Ephesus.” In “praying for his household” without Onesiphorus, it seems to be an indication of him being separated, dead. The clincher would be Paul mentioning, “grant him mercy on that Day!” In conclusion I would ask the Messianic Jews or Jewish converts to help me gain insight, since as I mentioned before, it seems that the Jewish faith perhaps prayed for the dead. In my education of the Bible the Old Testament was covered but not in great detail. I only started studying in greater detail when I joined Worthy.

Oak

PS Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

[Littlelambseativy]

The best answer that I can give you is this in Christ's own words -

Luke 16:

¹⁹ “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. ²⁰ At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores ²¹ and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. ²² “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. ²³ In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ²⁴ So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

²⁵ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. ²⁶ And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

²⁷ “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, ²⁸for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

²⁹ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

³⁰ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

³¹ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’

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Though I have argued this point with a Catholic friend it came to no avail.

When the rich man asked that Lazarus be sent to his family Abraham says that they should listen to the prophets whose words are written in the Torah. And to remember that there is a chasm and no one can go from here to there.

If that is the case then what good are the prayers for one who has died? As Abraham says to the rich man he had it good in this life - and he should have done something better with it while he was alive. Nothing can be changed after death all that has been done while alive is all that there is after death.

[Guest]

"If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies.

And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay.

If Hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions,

and let not one go there unwarned or unprayed for." Charles Haddon Spurgeon

~

"It is absolutely necessary to the preaching of the Gospel of Christ that men be warned as to what will happen to them if they die in their sins.

Ho, ho sir surgeon, you are too delicate to tell the man that he is ill!

You hope to heal the sick without their knowing it.

You therefore flatter them; and what happens?

They laugh at you; they dance upon their own grave.

At last they die!

Your delicacy is cruelty; your flatteries are poisons; you are a murderer.

Shall we keep men in a fool's paradise?

Shall we lull them into soft slumbers from which they will awake in hell?

Are we to become helpers of their damnation by our smooth speeches?

In the name of God we will not." Charles Haddon Spurgeon

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.... Anyway, we (my friend and I) both chose the topic of praying for the dead since it is not one of the key points of Salvation. The Orthodox Faith and the Catholic Church accept this practice (as well as some other religions) but for different reasons. Due to the wealth of information, I chose mainly to focus on scripture used by the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, since there is a lot of tradition involved in this practice. I will say two things about the tradition part. First is that it reminds me a lot of Fresno Joe’s quote of “let’s put our bodies up against the sinners to prevent them from falling into hell” (I’m paraphrasing). Secondly I found that before Christ, Jews would put up shrines to the prophets and prayed for the dead; I don’t quite remember where I read it or if it is even true. Note, I will comment on the scripture using my own words to avoid plagiarism. In regards to Maccabees, I will source it....

Beware~!

And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward.

And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness. Isaiah 8:17-22

Be Blessed~!

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Philippians 1:21-23

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[oak]

Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God? Are all of them not in the “light?” Why didn’t Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong.

Love Brother Oak

PS If I'm not correct about the accounts I cite, anyone is free to correct me.

[joi]

Perhaps you will find this interesting;

http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-to-the-dead.html which reads, in part:

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence. This perfect essence includes what some theologians call “immanence.” Immanence is the doctrine that affirms God is directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15), which includes answering prayer.

More at site

[Guest shiloh357]

Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God? Are all of them not in the “light?” Why didn’t Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong.

Jesus also did not say that setting yourself on fire was wrong. He did not anwywhere condemn child molestation, spousal abuse or rape. Do we assume on that basis that such actions are okay?

Prayer for the dead is not even a commandment in the Apocrypha. People offering prayers for the dead is nothing but an inferance taken out of context from the book of Maccabees. It was a historical narrative, not a prescription for righteous behavior. There is nothing anywhere that commands prayers for the dead.

The Jews did a lot of things that we would be well-advised not to do. That they were the chosen people does not, in any way, sanctify their actions. Just because the ancient Jews do something is not an indication that we should.

[Guest]

He Is Our Priest

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15

He Is Our Righteousness

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jeremiah 23:6

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Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols.... Why didn't Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong....

Beloved I Truly Believe Jesus (The LORD Of Hosts) Did Tell Us To Make No Images No Icons No Statues

For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Jeremiah 51:5

Because He Is The God Of Mercy

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

The God Of Grace

Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:19-23

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See Dear Brother

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Deuteronomy 5:8-10

Just Like Us Gentiles

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 26:1

Our Beloved Hebrew Brothers (And Sisters) Were Sinners

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:4-6

And I Do Believe That It Was Jesus

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. John 1:18

Who Gave His Holy Law

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

To Grandpa Moses

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, Deuteronomy 34:10

Face To Face

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Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.

Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Psalms 149:4-5

[Guest]

.... and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God?....

Beloved It Is Very Dangerous

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. Deuteronomy 18:10-11

There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 (NASB)

Very Very Dangerous

And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19

People will say to you, "Ask for help from the mediums and the fortunetellers, who whisper and mutter." Shouldn't people ask their God for help instead? Why should they ask the dead to help the living? Isaiah 8:19 (GOD'S WORD Translation)

When Men Take

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17

The Holy Bible

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. 1 John 2:12

From The Little Children

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Matthew 18:6

"These little ones believe in me. It would be best for the person who causes one of them to lose faith to be drowned in the sea with a large stone hung around his neck. Matthew 18:6 (GOD'S WORD Translation)

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Keep

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent,

I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind

striving together for the faith of the gospel; Philippians 1:27

The Faith

With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Ephesians 4:2-7

And Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:4-10

Love, Your (Oh So Thankful) Brother Joe

[oak]

First, I thank all of you for your answers. Secondly, no Orthodox and I hope Catholic would directly pray to a dead person. Let’s, say a mother loses her son in the Iraq War, is she wrong in praying to God to keep her son under His care? I looked over all your answers but didn’t find anything that would be in direct conflict with what I have just cited. If I did please let me know.

Further no one has addressed, 2 Timothy 1:16-19, regarding Onepsiphorus. Many of the Eastern Orthodox feel that Paul was praying for him when he was dead. I would appreciate feed back on this.

In the Orthodox faith, people pray to the departed directly to God, for them to sleep under God’s peace (awkward translation by me). Is this misguided? In fact a majority pray for people who departed as sinners and ask for mercy from God on their behalf. Let me again emphasize that to my knowledge no Orthodox prays directly to the departed. Lastly, no one is praying for the dead out of pride or to stand out as being superior, they pray out of a desperate hope for God’s mercy. And no one is denying that the great battle is taking place when you are alive.

And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know.

Oak

[Guest]

.... And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know....

Brother

I Never Forget Them

And I Always Give Thanksgiving

Rejoice evermore.

Pray without ceasing.

In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Quench not the Spirit.

Despise not prophesyings.

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21

And Beloved I Never Never Try To "Lie" The Thoughts Of Mortals Over God's Holy Revelation

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36