Praying for the Dead

[Guest]

And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know.

The way I look at it, you never know if someone could have found Christ before he or she died, so I don't automatically assume someone went to hell because I didn't think they were saved.

[Guest shiloh357]

In the Orthodox faith, people pray to the departed directly to God, for them to sleep under God’s peace (awkward translation by me). Is this misguided? In fact a majority pray for people who departed as sinners and ask for mercy from God on their behalf. Let me again emphasize that to my knowledge no Orthodox prays directly to the departed. Lastly, no one is praying for the dead out of pride or to stand out as being superior, they pray out of a desperate hope for God’s mercy. And no one is denying that the great battle is taking place when you are alive.

And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know.

Oak

God offers salvation to every person willing to receive it. To die in Christ means that you have to make a decision for Christ while you are alive. No one can pray you into heaven. No one's prayer is going to cause God to compromise His holiness in order to let an impenitent sinner into heaven after they rejected Christ in life. They chose to remain a sinner and that is the decision the have to live with for all eternity.

Even indecision about Christ is a decision against him. If you are at an airport and you are debating whether or not to buy a ticket to get on a particular flight, you have only so much time to make that decision. If you wait too long to make a decision the plane will take off without you. At that point the decision was made for you. Time always works against us in that regard. if you don't make your mind about getting on the plane the results are the same as if you decided to not board the flight at all.

God's mercy is extended to all who will receive Him, but that mercy is not extended to sinners AFTER death in any way, shape, or form. God's mercy must be received today in this life. Prayer for the dead to receive God's mercy after they have already died is not biblical and is a waste of time.

If someone dies without Christ, I simiply understand that they died separated from God and have entered into eternity without hope of salvation. Once you die, it's over. There are no second chances at redemption. I simply have to live with that reality for those who die without Christ. I will never forget them, as they were a part of my life, but there is nothing that can be done for them at that point.

[Bold Believer]

Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God? Are all of them not in the “light?” Why didn’t Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong.

Love Brother Oak

PS If I'm not correct about the accounts I cite, anyone is free to correct me.

Not everything that Jesus said was included in Scripture. He may well have said so.

The concept of praying for the dead is ridiculous. Their fate is sealed and there is nothing that prayer could do to change it one way or the other.

[oak]

In the Orthodox faith, people pray to the departed directly to God, for them to sleep under God’s peace (awkward translation by me). Is this misguided? In fact a majority pray for people who departed as sinners and ask for mercy from God on their behalf. Let me again emphasize that to my knowledge no Orthodox prays directly to the departed. Lastly, no one is praying for the dead out of pride or to stand out as being superior, they pray out of a desperate hope for God’s mercy. And no one is denying that the great battle is taking place when you are alive.

And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know.

Oak

God offers salvation to every person willing to receive it. To die in Christ means that you have to make a decision for Christ while you are alive. No one can pray you into heaven. No one's prayer is going to cause God to compromise His holiness in order to let an impenitent sinner into heaven after they rejected Christ in life. They chose to remain a sinner and that is the decision the have to live with for all eternity.

Even indecision about Christ is a decision against him. If you are at an airport and you are debating whether or not to buy a ticket to get on a particular flight, you have only so much time to make that decision. If you wait too long to make a decision the plane will take off without you. At that point the decision was made for you. Time always works against us in that regard. if you don't make your mind about getting on the plane the results are the same as if you decided to not board the flight at all.

God's mercy is extended to all who will receive Him, but that mercy is not extended to sinners AFTER death in any way, shape, or form. God's mercy must be received today in this life. Prayer for the dead to receive God's mercy after they have already died is not biblical and is a waste of time.

If someone dies without Christ, I simiply understand that they died separated from God and have entered into eternity without hope of salvation. Once you die, it's over. There are no second chances at redemption. I simply have to live with that reality for those who die without Christ. I will never forget them, as they were a part of my life, but there is nothing that can be done for them at that point.

Your point is well taken, Shiloh, for there are Orthodox believer’s who pray for their loved ones who have never – to their knowledge - accepted Christ and died in wretched ways. Of course this involves a topic that I purposefully avoided which entail intercession prayers. Something I may bring up later depending on how this post goes. I embraced the comments by Butero and Fresno Joe for only God knows our inner heart. And leave you with Christ’s stunning words from the cross,”…Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Lk 23:34

[Guest shiloh357]

Your point is well taken, Shiloh, for there are Orthodox believer’s who pray for their loved ones who have never – to their knowledge - accepted Christ and died in wretched ways.

It makes them feel better to do so, but it is waste of time. There is no salvation no mercy for sinners beyond the grave. If there were, it would mean that there was another path to salvation apart from faith in Christ. If they rejected His mercy in this life, there is no hope for them in the next.

Of course this involves a topic that I purposefully avoided which entail intercession prayers. Something I may bring up later depending on how this post goes.

Intercessory prayer involves praying for people who are alive today. There is not ONE bit of biblical support for interceding for those who have died.

I embraced the comments by Butero and Fresno Joe for only God knows our inner heart. And leave you with Christ’s stunning words from the cross,”…Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Lk 23:34

Jesus was praying for his enemies who were still alive at the time, so that doesn't really apply here.

Only God knows the heart that is true, but that doesn't really change anything. If person died without Christ there is no hope and any prayers for mercy on their behalf are a waste of time. If a person died in Christ, then they are in heaven and prayers on their behalf are not necessary.

[oak]

Shiloh, thank you for enumerating your beliefs on prayer for the dead for it will help with my conversation with my OSAS friend. Also, I brought up intersession, by mistake and I would appreciate it to not be part of this discussion.

I will assume that when Paul prayed for Onesiphorus, you feel Onesiphorus was both alive and in another location? Am I correct?

Lastly, I was wondering what is your approach to people you may have loved and died in Christ? Do you ever think about them or thank God they were in your life? Or do you just put them out of your mind. I recently heard that in the Iraq war a soldier in order to save the men around him fell on a grenade, to save them from death. If you were one of the survivors of this event, would you thank God for his actions? I don’t think you would easily be able to put that event out of your mind. And though the action has nothing to do with your salvation, would you make an effort not to pray or mention anything about him in your communications with God?

[Dragoon]

Recently, a very good friend of mine who said, at first he left Eastern Orthodoxy – years ago - for a non-denominational church, has know admitted to being an OSAS believer. Well, I’m worried because he has a very addictive in nature and even believes that in the parable of the wedding feast, the man who is cast out is still saved in Matt. 22:11-14. The hopeful purpose of this post is I want people to share their different perspectives on the topic.

Anyway, we (my friend and I) both chose the topic of praying for the dead since it is not one of the key points of Salvation. The Orthodox Faith and the Catholic Church accept this practice (as well as some other religions) but for different reasons. Due to the wealth of information, I chose mainly to focus on scripture used by the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, since there is a lot of tradition involved in this practice. I will say two things about the tradition part. First is that it reminds me a lot of Fresno Joe’s quote of “let’s put our bodies up against the sinners to prevent them from falling into hell” (I’m paraphrasing). Secondly I found that before Christ, Jews would put up shrines to the prophets and prayed for the dead; I don’t quite remember where I read it or if it is even true. Note, I will comment on the scripture using my own words to avoid plagiarism. In regards to Maccabees, I will source it.

In terms of Macabbees in the Council of Carthage 397 AD, Christians agreed on the texts to be used in the Bible – it included the 2 Maccabees’ books the second Maccabees book was originally written in Koin Greek – unusual for the Old Testament. Since I don’t know Greek, Serbian, Armenian etc., but have only Church Slavonic Bibles at home, I will resort to an English text: “But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” 2 Maccabees 12:45 (NRSV) – source. I use this to illustrate that certain religions use this as a justification for praying for the dead. You will probably not find it in your Bible.

Ok, now we come to the heart of the matter. I always seek out priests that have the love in them. One who had chemotherapy and a hard day confessing yet found time for me - and though tired, smiled and took me out for coffee; another after a hard fast waited to talk to me rather than filling himself with food. They are the minority. When I ask them about praying for the dead they echo the same sentiment. “…for “love is strong as death….” Song of Solomon 8:6 They believe that the law set limits but Christ showed that through faith they are open ended or there is no end. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” Jn 14:12 You may ask what does this they have to do with prayer for the dead? Well they actually believe that with Christ drawing us to open ended love, that they can pray to Him for a departed person that has never found Him and actually help them. Perhaps they are child-like optimists. But with them I know Christ conquered death and made love stronger than death. Besides the Bible reminds us, we often don’t pray correctly. “For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.” Rom 8:26

Now the serious and stern priests would probably draw me towards, 2 Timothy 1:16-18: “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus…May the Lord grant him mercy on that Day! –and you know the service he rendered at Ephesus.” In “praying for his household” without Onesiphorus, it seems to be an indication of him being separated, dead. The clincher would be Paul mentioning, “grant him mercy on that Day!” In conclusion I would ask the Messianic Jews or Jewish converts to help me gain insight, since as I mentioned before, it seems that the Jewish faith perhaps prayed for the dead. In my education of the Bible the Old Testament was covered but not in great detail. I only started studying in greater detail when I joined Worthy.

Oak

PS Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

Hello Oak,

I think there are actually two parts to this question.

A) Are we ABLE to pray for the dead (though I'm going to avoid the related "are we encouraged to pray for the dead")

B) Are prayers for the dead effective in any way

Part A:

Scripture tells us that we are to "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Eph 6:18). It should be noted that this refers to living saints, but can be construed as a general call to pray perhaps even after death.

Yet scripture also teaches that "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial" (1 Cor 10:23). We are to do all things for the glory of God.

"Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." (1 Cor 10:32-33).

In short, I don't think there's anything literally prohibiting prayer for the dead. But please keep in mind that closing passage from 1 Cor 10:32-33 as I'd like to bring it up later.

PART B:

I think the key passage for me here is in Hebrews.

"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb 9:27)

The analogy here is to Christ, who came and died ONCE for our sins, not needing to die and be sacrificed over and over again. This would seem to imply to me that death is the end, and that any prayers after death are meaningless. Well meaning perhaps, but meaningless.

If we truly desire to see men changed to an obedience and faith in Jesus Christ, then perhaps we should focus our efforts on them more fully while they are living (this is not to suggest that those who are faithful in praying for the dead were any less faithful in praying for the living). If we pray for the dead, we are in part feeding the false perception that man can go on sinning right till the end... because there will be an escape clause to free them from their actions.

If they denied Christ by their lives, will they truly welcome and turn to Him at death? If Moses, the Prophets, and a Risen Christ did not move them....

If by our prayers to the dead, we place stumbling blocks to people coming to Christ in life, might I suggest that the practice is best discouraged?

Certainly we are to love, and to love truly. But our first love should be for God and His glory.

"Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God; just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." (1 Cor 10:32-33).

[Guest shiloh357]

Lastly, I was wondering what is your approach to people you may have loved and died in Christ? Do you ever think about them or thank God they were in your life? Or do you just put them out of your mind.

I still think about them, of course. But I have need to pray for them. If they know the Lord or not, their destiny is done and they are either with Christ or not.

I recently heard that in the Iraq war a soldier in order to save the men around him fell on a grenade, to save them from death. If you were one of the survivors of this event, would you thank God for his actions? I don’t think you would easily be able to put that event out of your mind. And though the action has nothing to do with your salvation, would you make an effort not to pray or mention anything about him in your communications with God?

Thanking God for the man's actions is one thing. That is not praying "for" him. You are talking about praying for departed loved ones to receive mercy and so this example of soldier is not really germain to the issue you raised.

I would also point out that if people can be prayed into God's mercy AFTER death, why would we need to reach them with the Gospel today? The idea of praying for the dead to receive God's mercy might give people the idea that they don't have to receive Jesus today in the hopes that their loved ones will pray them into heaven after they die. It amounts to another means of salvation and that is simply not tenable with Scripture.

I will assume that when Paul prayed for Onesiphorus, you feel Onesiphorus was both alive and in another location? Am I correct?

Paul did not "pray" for him. He simply expressed his own blessing and wish for Onesiphorus to have the same mercy extended to him by God, as he exitended to Paul when supported Paul. It is common hebraic styled blessing. For one thing, the clear implication in 2 Tim. is that Onesiphorus was a believer who went to great lengths to minister to Paul. So there would be no need to pray for a man who was a believer. This style of blessing was not prayer for the man, but rather a hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus did.

[oak]

First of all thank you for all the answers given. Secondly, I haven’t only written about praying for God to have mercy on the dead - for them to achieve salvation. I wrote about all forms of praying for* the dead. If that was not understood, I should have been clearer in my writing.

There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer. But I will have to examine that more. As well as Shiloh’s remark "…Thanking God for the man's actions [falling on grenade to save the troops around him] is one thing. That is not praying "for" him.” In my opinion the action taken by the soldier, definitely resembles and deserves a prayer of thanks.

Finally, I would be puzzled if any form of our communication with God is not a type of prayer – even when we just talk to Him - excluding, of course things such as expressing anger, doubt etc.

PS I re-edited the doubled-up post and *thanks to Shiloh, I meant "for."

[Guest shiloh357]

First of all thank you for the answers given. Secondly, I haven’t only written about praying for God to have mercy on the dead - for them to achieve salvation. I wrote about all forms of praying to the dead. If that was not understood, I should have been clearer in my writing.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that the bolded part was a typo You meant to refer to praying for the dead, not praying to the dead.

There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer.

No, because Paul was not talking to God. He simply expressed his own blessing on Onesiphorus and his family. Paul did not say, "I will pray to God that He extend mercy to Onesiphorus." He was simply expressing his gratitude for Onesiphorus and by extension, his family as well. It is important to try and read more into the text than is there.

In my opinion the action taken by the soldier, definitely resembles and deserves a prayer of thanks.

But that is not indispute. What I said was that thanking God for man's action is not a prayer for the man, but a prayer of gratitude for the man's actions. You are expressing thanks, which is totally different than interceding on his behalf.

Finally, I would be puzzled if any form of our communication with God is not a type of prayer – even when we just talk to Him - excluding, of course things such as expressing anger, doubt etc.

That's kind of a red herring is that I did not say there is any form of communication with God that cannot be considered prayer.