Interesting things about "antichrist"

[Bold Believer]

Rev. 17 shows a woman (harlot) riding a beast. This beast is the revival of Daniel's 4th beast, the revived Roman Empire. Daniel's 1st beast was Babylon, 2nd Media-Persia, 3rd Greece, and 4th Roman's with two legs.

In Revelation 17, the beast is not coming out of the sea (or earth). Since the beast is not coming out of the sea or earth in Revelation 17, the dual representation found in Daniel 7 of the beast being both a king and the fourth kingdom, does not apply in this particular chapter, like it does in Revelation 13.

The beast in Revelation 17 is a person.

In this particular chapter, the beast being scarlet colored matches better with the red dragon (Satan) in Revelation 12, but since Satan is not in the bottomless pit, it cannot be directly Satan himself as the beast. So whoever the beast is, he was doing Satan's bidding back in his day when he was alive. Here is the key verse of Revelation 17. The verse can be broken down into two parts.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In the first part of Revelation 17:8, the beast "was and is not" which indicates that he once was alive but is no longer alive at the time of John. The beast is currently in the bottomless pit. He was an ancient individual.

The second part of Revelation 17:8 makes the connection between the end times Antichrist person (the wounded head) and the ancient person. They are two separate individuals which will unify into the Antichrist-beast of the last 42 months of the 7 years. The world will wonder seeing the beast (outwardly, what they will observe is the slain and recovered man of sin) was (alive), is not (he dies), and yet is (he lives). Internally to the slain and recovered man of sin, the beast as a disembodied spirit will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the slain recovered man of sin.

Now who is the woman that will be riding the revived 4th beast?

In this particular chapter, the description of the beast is Satan. So the woman is doing Satan's bidding. Which if by the inscription on the woman's head - Mystery Babylon - it take us all the way back to the tower of Babel. And the beast currently in the bottomless pit is Nimrod, imo. I could be wrong, it could be someone else.

I do agree with you that the whore is probably the RCC as the organization and the city of Rome that the ten kings will destroy. But I would not say that the whore exclusively only represents the RCC, but also the whore goes all the way back to Babel and before the RCC - because in Revelation 18 it says, 18:24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Which nation Scripture is called a harlot over and over?

Judges 2:11, 12, 17; 8:27, 33

I Chron 5:25

II Chron 21:11-13

Psalms 106:6-chapter end specifically v 39

Isaiah 1:1-21

Jer 2 entire chapter

Jer 3:8

Jer 5:7

Ezekiel 6:3-13

Ezekiel 16 entire chapter

Ezekiel 20:30

Ezekiel 23 entire chapter (metaphorically by another name, look at the context)

Hosea 2 entire chapter

Hosea 4 entire chapter

Hosea 5:3. 9:1

Micah 1 entire chapter

Over and over and over again, ISRAEL and Jerusalem, more than any other nation and city is called a harlot.

Whenever you see the word harlot, whore or prostitute in Revelation, IT MEANS ISRAEL.

Read Daniel 9 FROM THE BEGINNING, and you find out the reason for what Jesus called in Luke 21:20 the days of vengeance. Israel's kings and priests had been leading her astray over and over. The righteous who believed on him were told to get out because the DESOLATION THEREOF WAS NEAR.

It was all about Israel, righteous and wicked. The exaltation of the righteous, the punishment of her apostate leaders and people who followed them.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Rev. 17 shows a woman (harlot) riding a beast. This beast is the revival of Daniel's 4th beast, the revived Roman Empire. Daniel's 1st beast was Babylon, 2nd Media-Persia, 3rd Greece, and 4th Roman's with two legs.

In Revelation 17, the beast is not coming out of the sea (or earth). Since the beast is not coming out of the sea or earth in Revelation 17, the dual representation found in Daniel 7 of the beast being both a king and the fourth kingdom, does not apply in this particular chapter, like it does in Revelation 13.

The beast in Revelation 17 is a person.

In this particular chapter, the beast being scarlet colored matches better with the red dragon (Satan) in Revelation 12, but since Satan is not in the bottomless pit, it cannot be directly Satan himself as the beast. So whoever the beast is, he was doing Satan's bidding back in his day when he was alive. Here is the key verse of Revelation 17. The verse can be broken down into two parts.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

In the first part of Revelation 17:8, the beast "was and is not" which indicates that he once was alive but is no longer alive at the time of John. The beast is currently in the bottomless pit. He was an ancient individual.

The second part of Revelation 17:8 makes the connection between the end times Antichrist person (the wounded head) and the ancient person. They are two separate individuals which will unify into the Antichrist-beast of the last 42 months of the 7 years. The world will wonder seeing the beast (outwardly, what they will observe is the slain and recovered man of sin) was (alive), is not (he dies), and yet is (he lives). Internally to the slain and recovered man of sin, the beast as a disembodied spirit will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the slain recovered man of sin.

I disagree. Rev. 17 isn't going to show the beasts coming out of the sea and earth again, as it already did previously in chapter 13. Instead, it calls for wisdom and provides more info so we can have a better understanding of the beasts in chapter 13.

The beast that "was and is not" is not telling us that it must be fulfilled in John's lifetime. It's telling about those that dwell on the earth when it happens, whenever that maybe, which is left open. There is nothing telling when it would happen or that it will happen in his lifetime, so I would not read that into it.

As I said earlier, I don't believe in an antichrist man, as being a single person. None of the verses that mention antichrist tell of a single man coming in the future. I also don't believe that the beast is a man. It is a kingdom, although it will have a man leading it, just as the Catholic church will also have a man (pope) leading it. The leader will be the little horn and/or the son of perdition, but not antichrist as an individual, as (all) unbelievers are antichrist's. The beast is Daniel's 4th beast, and it is a divided kingdom. It is also one of the dragons seven heads (kingdoms), the one with a fatal head wound.

Daniel 2:40-43

And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This is the beast (that was and is not) yet will be again. It will be here when Christ returns to destroy it. You can see it in the form of feet with ten toes, which are struck by the stone and broken when Christ returns. Then all of the beast kingdoms will be destroyed as Christ sets up His glorious millennial kingdom.

Daniel 2:34-35

Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Revelation 17:8b

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Those that dwell on the earth shall wonder after the beast.

Rev.13:3

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Wondering after the beast is where I believe the world becomes a global government with a global economy, when the mark of the beast is implemented. The current world economy will collapse and I believe the EU will end up introducing a new economic system, the mark of the beast, which I also believe is the strong delusion. The people won't have to necessarily bow down and worship the image of a man per se, although the image has something to do with the number of a man. But just by taking the mark of the beast, they will be deceived into worshipping the beast and the dragon (Satan), as God said that anyone that takes that mark is doomed for all of eternity.

[douggg]

Which nation Scripture is called a harlot over and over?

The question is who is the harlot riding the beast and sitting on many waters. Israel and Jerusalem in the passages you refer to doesn't fit that requirement. Israel has not been a nation for 2000 years until 1948. And Jerusalem has not been it's capital until 1967. The RCC which has been active in persecuting Christians over that 2000 year period fits the description of the whore when the facts are examined.

Ezekiel 38/39 eliminates that the whore is Israel. God defends Israel in the attack of God/Magog. And later at the end of the 7 years, the Lord returns to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, from the other nations.

Doug

[douggg]

I disagree. Rev. 17 isn't going to show the beasts coming out of the sea and earth again, as it already did previously in chapter 13. Instead, it calls for wisdom and provides more info so we can have a better understanding of the beasts in chapter 13.

The beast that "was and is not" is not telling us that it must be fulfilled in John's lifetime. It's telling about those that dwell on the earth when it happens, whenever that maybe, which is left open. There is nothing telling when it would happen or that it will happen in his lifetime, so I would not read that into it.

Revelation 13 - 42 months left in the 7 years

Revelation 12 - 7 years left in the 7 years

Revelation 17 - at the time of John first century

The status of the crowns on the horns and heads is substantially different in each of those chapters.

I think you misunderstood me regarding the beast "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 first part. That beast was dead and in the bottomless pit before John received revelation, first century.

As I said earlier, I don't believe in an antichrist man, as being a single person. None of the verses that mention antichrist tell of a single man coming in the future. I also don't believe that the beast is a man. It is a kingdom, although it will have a man leading it, just as the Catholic church will also have a man (pope) leading it. The leader will be the little horn and/or the son of perdition, but not antichrist as an individual, as (all) unbelievers are antichrist's. The beast is Daniel's 4th beast, and it is a divided kingdom. It is also one of the dragons seven heads (kingdoms), the one with a fatal head wound.

If you are going to interpret the beast "ascending out of the bottomless pit" as being the RCC. First, you will have to establish that the RCC went into the bottomless pit before the time of John first century. The RCC did not exist at the time.

Doug

[rollinTHUNDER]

I disagree. Rev. 17 isn't going to show the beasts coming out of the sea and earth again, as it already did previously in chapter 13. Instead, it calls for wisdom and provides more info so we can have a better understanding of the beasts in chapter 13.

The beast that "was and is not" is not telling us that it must be fulfilled in John's lifetime. It's telling about those that dwell on the earth when it happens, whenever that maybe, which is left open. There is nothing telling when it would happen or that it will happen in his lifetime, so I would not read that into it.

Revelation 13 - 42 months left in the 7 years

Revelation 12 - 7 years left in the 7 years

Revelation 17 - at the time of John first century

The status of the crowns on the horns and heads is substantially different in each of those chapters.

I think you misunderstood me regarding the beast "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 first part. That beast was dead and in the bottomless pit before John received revelation, first century.

This does not effect my view as it does yours, for I don't put the same time constraints on this prophecy as you do. This prophecy that John was given was highly symbolic, and nothing in it after the 3rd chapter suggests that John would be a witness to such things mentioned, as in him seeing the fulfillments himself. He was told to write these things down, but never was he told that he would see these things play out. Furthermore, I highly doubt John had any understanding of the future things that he was told to write about whatsoever.

[rollinTHUNDER]

As I said earlier, I don't believe in an antichrist man, as being a single person. None of the verses that mention antichrist tell of a single man coming in the future. I also don't believe that the beast is a man. It is a kingdom, although it will have a man leading it, just as the Catholic church will also have a man (pope) leading it. The leader will be the little horn and/or the son of perdition, but not antichrist as an individual, as (all) unbelievers are antichrist's. The beast is Daniel's 4th beast, and it is a divided kingdom. It is also one of the dragons seven heads (kingdoms), the one with a fatal head wound.

If you are going to interpret the beast "ascending out of the bottomless pit" as being the RCC. First, you will have to establish that the RCC went into the bottomless pit before the time of John first century. The RCC did not exist at the time.

Doug

Again, you apply more of the same type of time constraints here as well. You also seem to interpret the symbols in a more literal sense than I do. For example, the beast rising up out of the sea has seven heads, and one of them receives a deadly head wound. You assume, like many others, that this head is a man, but I believe the answer is given in Daniel chapters 2 & 7, which speaks of the revival of the Roman Empire at the time of the end, and when Christ returns. Naturally, nations and Empires have men as leaders, but I just don't buy into those men being literal heads of a seven headed beast coming up out of the sea. It just seems so ridiculous to me, especially when the same teachers that are teaching this also recognize that the Roman Empire will be revived in the end. So why can't they see it? I guess they just can't see the forest for the trees.

By the way, since you believe the antichrist is also the beast, I'd like to see you state your case as to why you believe this, while using Scripture, of course, and not false assumptions and misconceptions. Furthermore, you also might want to show why you believe the antichrist is a single man that will come during the time of the end. I've often wondered how so many have reached this conclusion. But I gotta tell ya, I believe it has much to do with 2 Tim. 4:1-4.

[douggg]

I disagree. Rev. 17 isn't going to show the beasts coming out of the sea and earth again, as it already did previously in chapter 13. Instead, it calls for wisdom and provides more info so we can have a better understanding of the beasts in chapter 13.

The beast that "was and is not" is not telling us that it must be fulfilled in John's lifetime. It's telling about those that dwell on the earth when it happens, whenever that maybe, which is left open. There is nothing telling when it would happen or that it will happen in his lifetime, so I would not read that into it.

Revelation 13 - 42 months left in the 7 years

Revelation 12 - 7 years left in the 7 years

Revelation 17 - at the time of John first century

The status of the crowns on the horns and heads is substantially different in each of those chapters.

I think you misunderstood me regarding the beast "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 first part. That beast was dead and in the bottomless pit before John received revelation, first century.

This does not effect my view as it does yours, for I don't put the same time constraints on this prophecy as you do. This prophecy that John was given was highly symbolic, and nothing in it after the 3rd chapter suggests that John would be a witness to such things mentioned, as in him seeing the fulfillments himself. He was told to write these things down, but never was he told that he would see these things play out. Furthermore, I highly doubt John had any understanding of the future things that he was told to write about whatsoever.

I am not saying that John saw the fulfillment's. He did not see the beast die and go into the bottomless pit. He was told by the angel, that's where the beast is.

The status of the beast having no crowns on either the heads nor horns,nor having a wounded head, in Revelation 17 is pinned to 6th king ruling at the time, which would have been 1st century. The beast was already in the bottomless pit at the time of the 6th king, the "one is" king of Revelation 17:10. Which means the beast already being in the bottomless pit cannot be the Pope, nor the RCC, because neither existed at the time of the 1st century.

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Edited January 17, 2012 by douggg

[douggg]

As I said earlier, I don't believe in an antichrist man, as being a single person. None of the verses that mention antichrist tell of a single man coming in the future. I also don't believe that the beast is a man. It is a kingdom, although it will have a man leading it, just as the Catholic church will also have a man (pope) leading it. The leader will be the little horn and/or the son of perdition, but not antichrist as an individual, as (all) unbelievers are antichrist's. The beast is Daniel's 4th beast, and it is a divided kingdom. It is also one of the dragons seven heads (kingdoms), the one with a fatal head wound.

If you are going to interpret the beast "ascending out of the bottomless pit" as being the RCC. First, you will have to establish that the RCC went into the bottomless pit before the time of John first century. The RCC did not exist at the time.

Doug

Again, you apply more of the same type of time constraints here as well. You also seem to interpret the symbols in a more literal sense than I do. For example, the beast rising up out of the sea has seven heads, and one of them receives a deadly head wound. You assume, like many others, that this head is a man, but I believe the answer is given in Daniel chapters 2 & 7, which speaks of the revival of the Roman Empire at the time of the end, and when Christ returns. Naturally, nations and Empires have men as leaders, but I just don't buy into those men being literal heads of a seven headed beast coming up out of the sea. It just seems so ridiculous to me, especially when the same teachers that are teaching this also recognize that the Roman Empire will be revived in the end. So why can't they see it? I guess they just can't see the forest for the trees.

By the way, since you believe the antichrist is also the beast, I'd like to see you state your case as to why you believe this, while using Scripture, of course, and not false assumptions and misconceptions. Furthermore, you also might want to show why you believe the antichrist is a single man that will come during the time of the end. I've often wondered how so many have reached this conclusion. But I gotta tell ya, I believe it has much to do with 2 Tim. 4:1-4.

The beast in the bottomless pit is the disembodied spirit of some ancient individual, who died long ago. The Antichrist man is an end times person. Two separate distinct individuals.... until the Antichrist in his man of sin stage is killed and comes back to life. When the man of sin comes back to life, he will be possessed by the disembodied spirit of the ancient individual, to become the Antichrist-beast who rules for the final 42 months of the seven years.

The heads represent kings, not kingdoms. The wounded head represents one of the kings who will be mortally wounded.

Regarding the Antichrist being a single person, do you understand the difference between the King Messiah concept and the save-us-from-our-sins Messiah concept? It is imperative to know the difference because Jesus prophesied that to Nicodemus that they the Jews would accept another (in lieu of himself). The another is the Antichrist, but a person has to know what "the messiah" means to the Jews that they would accept the another. Their idea of the messiah is limited to the King Messiah concept.

Doug

Edited January 17, 2012 by douggg

[Bold Believer]

Which nation Scripture is called a harlot over and over?

The question is who is the harlot riding the beast and sitting on many waters. Israel and Jerusalem in the passages you refer to doesn't fit that requirement. Israel has not been a nation for 2000 years until 1948. And Jerusalem has not been it's capital until 1967. The RCC which has been active in persecuting Christians over that 2000 year period fits the description of the whore when the facts are examined.

Ezekiel 38/39 eliminates that the whore is Israel. God defends Israel in the attack of God/Magog. And later at the end of the 7 years, the Lord returns to rescue the Jews in Jerusalem, from the other nations.

Doug

Ancient Israel of Jesus' day fits exactly. Revelation is about the things that SOON come to pass. No matter how ya looks at it, 2000 years AIN'T soon.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about the defeat of the Scythians. While John uses the Ezekiel prophecy as a figure of how the men of the last days will attack the Church, that occurs after the millennium. Where is 7 years mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39? (it isn't)

[Guest]

.... Ezekiel 38 and 39 are about the defeat of the Scythians. While John uses the Ezekiel prophecy as a figure of how the men of the last days will attack the Church, that occurs after the millennium....

Whole Lot Of Shaken

And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. Ezekiel 38:18-20

For The House Of Israel

After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 39:26-29

Maranatha~!