Interesting things about "antichrist"

[Montana Marv]

Nebula

Zech 13:8,9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two-thirds will be struck down and perish, yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them, I will say 'They are my people," and they will say "The Lord is our God.

Not until Israel calls upon the name of the Lord and He answers them "They are my people" have they finished transgression; put an end to sin; to atone for wickedness (accepting Christ as their Lord); to bring in everlasting righteousness (they will be with Christ for 1000 years); to seal up vision and prophecy, none will be needed during the 1000 years, for Christ now becomes the focal point; to anoint the most holy (Israel must anoint Jesus as their King - so as to sit on David's throne forever).

All this is future for Israel. The prophecy of Daniel 9:24 is all about Israel and no one else. Who are Daniel's People (plural) and who/what is Daniel's holy city??? For both are to fulfill the six tasks. No replacement theology here.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Interesting interpretation. It sounds like you are inserting the word "their" in the passage is read:

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish [their] transgression, to make an end of [their] sin, to make atonement for [their] iniquity, to bring in [their] everlasting righteousness [by themselves], to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

Nebula

I am talking from third person. Israel to me is a they/their. It is personal for them. Since the six tasks are decreed for them/Israel to do. They have Seventy sevens for completion. It has been decreed by God.

Zeph 3:13 - The remnant of Israel will do no wrong, they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths They will eat and lie down and no none will make them afraid. v.20 - At that time I will gather you; at that time I will bring you home. I will give you honor and praise among all the peoples of the earth when I restore your fortunes before your very eyes.

Now compare with Daniel 9:24 - Israel is to finish transgression, Israel is to put an end to sin, Israel is to atone for wickedness, Israel is to bring in everlasting righteousness, Israel is to seal up vision and prophecy, Israel is to anoint the most holy.

What about believers now, can we finish or stop transgressing, can we put an end to our sin. It becomes a choice, we have the power of the HS in us; either we do or we do not. But we still have 1 John 1:9 to bring us back into fellowship with Christ; for we are not with Christ yet. The remnant of Israel then will be in the presence of Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rod1]

How can the ethnic people of Israel put an end to there own transgression, not believing in the one who was sent, Christ!

They do not have the Spirit because they do not belong to God, as Christ testified to the Jews of his day.

The Israel of God are people of all tribes and tongues that have the 'Spirit of Righteousness' as given to Abraham, that's why scripture says not all

Israel are Israel. Who then is Israel? Those who believe in the messiah, Christ! Yes, there will be a remnant, but only that.

The one who puts an end to transgression can only be Christ, not natural man, devoid of the spirit who cannot know God.

Does this mean he puts an end to transgression for the believer, us being perfected, or an end to transgression during the millenial reign of Christ when

he comes?

Edited December 5, 2011 by rod1

[Bold Believer]

Marv, you're missing this by a very wide berth. The Daniel 9 prophecy DOES mention Messiah. Messiah is cut off but not for himself. Your understanding is very flawed here.

[Montana Marv]

Marv, you're missing this by a very wide berth. The Daniel 9 prophecy DOES mention Messiah. Messiah is cut off but not for himself. Your understanding is very flawed here.

Bold

No flaw at all. Have you taken English is School. Dan 9:24 is prophecy regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Period; Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and holy city to::: But, as you say v.26 mentions the Anointed One being cut off at the end of the 69th week. What about the first 69 prophetic weeks, who do they pertain to: None other than Israel.

If you want to get picky; read Daniel 9:15 - Now O Lord our God who brought "your people" out of Egypt. Now this same "your people" in verse 24 is given a decree: To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy,

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nebula]

Have you taken English is School.

This is what happens when you respond in anger in stead of taking some deep breaths and let your mind cool so that you are better able to respond rationally.

[Montana Marv]

Have you taken English is School.

This is what happens when you respond in anger in stead of taking some deep breaths and let your mind cool so that you are better able to respond rationally.

Nebula

And Bold says that my understanding is very flawed. If Scripture does not need interpretation, I leave it alone. I take it for what it says. The same with Daniel 9:24. Basic English grammar, a very easy verse to comprehend.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nebula]

And Bold says that my understanding is very flawed. If Scripture does not need interpretation, I leave it alone. I take it for what it says. The same with Daniel 9:24. Basic English grammar, a very easy verse to comprehend.

Thanks-you. This is a much more palatable argument to digest, rather than the slap of insult.

But now my question is thus - what about Hebrew grammar as presented originally. Are you able to show that original reading in Hebrew read the same?

[Montana Marv]

And Bold says that my understanding is very flawed. If Scripture does not need interpretation, I leave it alone. I take it for what it says. The same with Daniel 9:24. Basic English grammar, a very easy verse to comprehend.

Thanks-you. This is a much more palatable argument to digest, rather than the slap of insult.

But now my question is thus - what about Hebrew grammar as presented originally. Are you able to show that original reading in Hebrew read the same?

Nebula

I take what the expert translators have translated. It is their field of expertise; Many with doctorates, they have immersed themselves in this study. They know Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic inside and out, outside and inside. Why should I balk at work they have done.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited December 6, 2011 by Montana Marv

[Bold Believer]

Marv, you're missing this by a very wide berth. The Daniel 9 prophecy DOES mention Messiah. Messiah is cut off but not for himself. Your understanding is very flawed here.

Bold

No flaw at all. Have you taken English is School. Dan 9:24 is prophecy regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Period; Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and holy city to::: But, as you say v.26 mentions the Anointed One being cut off at the end of the 69th week. What about the first 69 prophetic weeks, who do they pertain to: None other than Israel.

If you want to get picky; read Daniel 9:15 - Now O Lord our God who brought "your people" out of Egypt. Now this same "your people" in verse 24 is given a decree: To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy,

In Christ

Montana Marv

The problem is Marv...IT'S WRITTEN IN HEBREW. English doesn't mean much except in how it's translated.

I am very familiar with Daniel 9. I've studied eschatology for 35 of my years as a Christian. Now...

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

The 70 sevens have been decreed for 'your people' (Israel) and 'your holy city' (Jerusalem). During those 490 years, six things will occur:

1. The kalah pesha...the completion of transgression or rebellion. This corresponds specifically to Jesus' words in Mt 23:32 when he tells the Israeli leadership this: "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers." Jesus uses the word pleroo, which means to fill up or complete. Read Mt 23:29-39 you will (hopefully) see the correlation. Messiah is declaring that Daniel's prophecy is going to be fulfilled to the same generation to which he speaks.

2. The tamam chatta'ath...the end (destruction) of sin. Not sins. Sin. The condition of sin and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the work of Jesus in Hebrews 9:26 where it is written: "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself..."

3. The kaphar avon: the making of atonement for iniquity. The word avon when attached to kaphar refers to the condition of iniquity and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the duty of the High Priest (whom Jesus is, unless you deny that) to go into the Holy of Holies and offer up blood once a year. Hebrews 9:12 states this: "and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption..." Only eternal redemption could atone. Only a perfect High Priest could do it, and Jesus was and is that perfect High Priest.

4. The bow olam tsedeq...bringing in of everlasting righteousness. It follows that if you have obtained an eternal redemption, it will bring in an everlasting righteousness, does it not? The one is causative of the other.

5. The khatam chazown navi: the sealing of the visions of the prophets. The use of the word khatam I believe is very important. It means to affix a seal to something. We still do it today in the form of the notary public. It literally means to make something official. What is Daniel saying: The coming of Messiah places God's official seal on the words of the prophets. You can trust their words, because they come from God.

6. The mashach qodesh qodesh. The anointing of the Holy of Holies. Not the one on earth, but the one in heaven! Again, Hebrews 9 tells us: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; ..." Christ anointed the heavenly Holy of Holies BY HIS SINLESS BLOOD AND WITH HIS SINLESS PRESENCE.

So then, the prophecy is about Jerusalem and what God is going to do through Messiah for their sins and about the rebellion (Dan 9:5-8) of Israel.

[rollinTHUNDER]

The term "antichrist" is probably one of the longest running misconceptions in eschatology. The word was only mentioned five times, in only four verses of Scripture, and by only one of Christ' disciples. Here they are:

1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Nowhere in the verses above do we find that there will be a single antichrist man that will come at the time of the end. Many scholars down through the years have assumed that the term "antichrist" is referring to the man of sin and/or son of perdition or lawlessness, but that is only an assumption at best. Many others have reached even further, jumping to the conclusion that antichrist is also the beast of Revelation. This is how myths are created and grow.

According to 1 John 2:18, there are many antichrists.

According to 1 John 2:22, anyone that denies that Jesus is the Christ, he is antichrist that denies both, the Father and the Son.

According to 1 John 4:3, antichrist is the spirit of unbelievers, unlike believers, who have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them.

According to 2 John 1:7, which is in agreement with 1 John 2:18, there are many antichrists. In fact, there are way more antichrist's in this world than there are Christians.

It seems kind of funny sometimes, when I hear some scholar say things like: "Hitler, he was a type of antichrist, but the one that will come in the end will be far worse." It never seems to dawn on these guys that their own unbelieving next door neighbor is every bit as much an antichrist as the one they believe will come in the future. We are surrounded by antichrist's. We were antichrist's ourselves until we received Christ.

This is why I don't use this term, because it has become a far reaching myth. But people keep using this term, arguing over it like a dog going round and round, chasing after its own tail, not realizing that they are going nowhere.