Interesting things about "antichrist"

[nebula]

But now my question is thus - what about Hebrew grammar as presented originally. Are you able to show that original reading in Hebrew read the same?

Nebula

I take what the expert translators have translated. It is their field of expertise; Many with doctorates, they have immersed themselves in this study. They know Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic inside and out, outside and inside. Why should I balk at work they have done.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Even the best of translations cannot fully capture the essence of the original language. And considering how many verses come across with differences between translations, it then becomes a fight over which translation one deems most accurate.

So before re-routing my entire theology, I'd rather know the essence of what the Hebrew was saying versus English grammar.

But that's just me.

~~

P.S. Just curious, but I was wondering why you have been adjusting the font sizes in your responses?

[Montana Marv]

Marv, you're missing this by a very wide berth. The Daniel 9 prophecy DOES mention Messiah. Messiah is cut off but not for himself. Your understanding is very flawed here.

Bold

No flaw at all. Have you taken English is School. Dan 9:24 is prophecy regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Period; Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and holy city to::: But, as you say v.26 mentions the Anointed One being cut off at the end of the 69th week. What about the first 69 prophetic weeks, who do they pertain to: None other than Israel.

If you want to get picky; read Daniel 9:15 - Now O Lord our God who brought "your people" out of Egypt. Now this same "your people" in verse 24 is given a decree: To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy,

In Christ

Montana Marv

The problem is Marv...IT'S WRITTEN IN HEBREW. English doesn't mean much except in how it's translated.

I am very familiar with Daniel 9. I've studied eschatology for 35 of my years as a Christian. Now...

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

The 70 sevens have been decreed for 'your people' (Israel) and 'your holy city' (Jerusalem). During those 490 years, six things will occur:

1. The kalah pesha...the completion of transgression or rebellion. This corresponds specifically to Jesus' words in Mt 23:32 when he tells the Israeli leadership this: "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers." Jesus uses the word pleroo, which means to fill up or complete. Read Mt 23:29-39 you will (hopefully) see the correlation. Messiah is declaring that Daniel's prophecy is going to be fulfilled to the same generation to which he speaks.

2. The tamam chatta'ath...the end (destruction) of sin. Not sins. Sin. The condition of sin and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the work of Jesus in Hebrews 9:26 where it is written: "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself..."

3. The kaphar avon: the making of atonement for iniquity. The word avon when attached to kaphar refers to the condition of iniquity and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the duty of the High Priest (whom Jesus is, unless you deny that) to go into the Holy of Holies and offer up blood once a year. Hebrews 9:12 states this: "and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption..." Only eternal redemption could atone. Only a perfect High Priest could do it, and Jesus was and is that perfect High Priest.

4. The bow olam tsedeq...bringing in of everlasting righteousness. It follows that if you have obtained an eternal redemption, it will bring in an everlasting righteousness, does it not? The one is causative of the other.

5. The khatam chazown navi: the sealing of the visions of the prophets. The use of the word khatam I believe is very important. It means to affix a seal to something. We still do it today in the form of the notary public. It literally means to make something official. What is Daniel saying: The coming of Messiah places God's official seal on the words of the prophets. You can trust their words, because they come from God.

6. The mashach qodesh qodesh. The anointing of the Holy of Holies. Not the one on earth, but the one in heaven! Again, Hebrews 9 tells us: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; ..." Christ anointed the heavenly Holy of Holies BY HIS SINLESS BLOOD AND WITH HIS SINLESS PRESENCE.

So then, the prophecy is about Jerusalem and what God is going to do through Messiah for their sins and about the rebellion (Dan 9:5-8) of Israel.

Bold

It all depends on the point of accountability.

Our accountability as believers does not happen until we accept Christ. Then all things become new, All is forgiven and forgotten by Christ. If you want to say that all six tasks are fulfilled in our live (so be it); But we still sin and fall away, and 1 John 1:9 restores us back to fellowship with Christ.

Daniels people and Daniels holy city are not accountable until they accept Christ, Then all things become new, All is forgiven and forgotten by Christ. This will be the fulfillment of the six task for them. They will be in the presence of Christ during this time.

This prophecy of Daniel 9:24 is all about when Israel and Jerusalem become accountable. Seventy Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to: ....... These all become "toast" when they accept Christ as their Lord. This is when Christ sets up His 1000 year Kingdom on earth.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Bold Believer]

Marv, you're missing this by a very wide berth. The Daniel 9 prophecy DOES mention Messiah. Messiah is cut off but not for himself. Your understanding is very flawed here.

Bold

No flaw at all. Have you taken English is School. Dan 9:24 is prophecy regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Period; Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and holy city to::: But, as you say v.26 mentions the Anointed One being cut off at the end of the 69th week. What about the first 69 prophetic weeks, who do they pertain to: None other than Israel.

If you want to get picky; read Daniel 9:15 - Now O Lord our God who brought "your people" out of Egypt. Now this same "your people" in verse 24 is given a decree: To finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy,

In Christ

Montana Marv

The problem is Marv...IT'S WRITTEN IN HEBREW. English doesn't mean much except in how it's translated.

I am very familiar with Daniel 9. I've studied eschatology for 35 of my years as a Christian. Now...

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

The 70 sevens have been decreed for 'your people' (Israel) and 'your holy city' (Jerusalem). During those 490 years, six things will occur:

1. The kalah pesha...the completion of transgression or rebellion. This corresponds specifically to Jesus' words in Mt 23:32 when he tells the Israeli leadership this: "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers." Jesus uses the word pleroo, which means to fill up or complete. Read Mt 23:29-39 you will (hopefully) see the correlation. Messiah is declaring that Daniel's prophecy is going to be fulfilled to the same generation to which he speaks.

2. The tamam chatta'ath...the end (destruction) of sin. Not sins. Sin. The condition of sin and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the work of Jesus in Hebrews 9:26 where it is written: "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself..."

3. The kaphar avon: the making of atonement for iniquity. The word avon when attached to kaphar refers to the condition of iniquity and the guilt it produces. This corresponds to the duty of the High Priest (whom Jesus is, unless you deny that) to go into the Holy of Holies and offer up blood once a year. Hebrews 9:12 states this: "and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption..." Only eternal redemption could atone. Only a perfect High Priest could do it, and Jesus was and is that perfect High Priest.

4. The bow olam tsedeq...bringing in of everlasting righteousness. It follows that if you have obtained an eternal redemption, it will bring in an everlasting righteousness, does it not? The one is causative of the other.

5. The khatam chazown navi: the sealing of the visions of the prophets. The use of the word khatam I believe is very important. It means to affix a seal to something. We still do it today in the form of the notary public. It literally means to make something official. What is Daniel saying: The coming of Messiah places God's official seal on the words of the prophets. You can trust their words, because they come from God.

6. The mashach qodesh qodesh. The anointing of the Holy of Holies. Not the one on earth, but the one in heaven! Again, Hebrews 9 tells us: "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; ..." Christ anointed the heavenly Holy of Holies BY HIS SINLESS BLOOD AND WITH HIS SINLESS PRESENCE.

So then, the prophecy is about Jerusalem and what God is going to do through Messiah for their sins and about the rebellion (Dan 9:5-8) of Israel.

Bold

It all depends on the point of accountability.

Our accountability as believers does not happen until we accept Christ. Then all things become new, All is forgiven and forgotten by Christ. If you want to say that all six tasks are fulfilled in our live (so be it); But we still sin and fall away, and 1 John 1:9 restores us back to fellowship with Christ.

Daniels people and Daniels holy city are not accountable until they accept Christ, Then all things become new, All is forgiven and forgotten by Christ. This will be the fulfillment of the six task for them. They will be in the presence of Christ during this time.

This prophecy of Daniel 9:24 is all about when Israel and Jerusalem become accountable. Seventy Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to: ....... These all become "toast" when they accept Christ as their Lord. This is when Christ sets up His 1000 year Kingdom on earth.

In Christ

Montana Marv

They WERE held accountable in 70 AD. That was the whole reason FOR the events of 70 AD. They were given double for their sins. The 'they' was the apostate leadership of faithless (as opposed to faithful) Israel and those who followed that leadership. The matter has been decided and the punishment meted out. They were the ones who rejected Jesus' Messiahship. Those who believed were not held accountable. They were kept safe at Pella because they heeded the warning of Jesus to flee the city. Their faith was proven by action.

[Montana Marv]

Bold

This is Israel Zech12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one who they have pierced and they will mourn........

Israel is also included in Rev 1:7 - Look He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him........

Zech 13:9b - They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say "they are may people", and they will say, "the Lord is our God". The 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled at this time. Israel now becomes grafted back into the Vine, and the six tasks have been completed.

I just wonder why you and Nebula use very, very little scripture in your rebuttals. You always say someones interpretation is wrong, but you never back what you believe with Scripture. But I now why, Perterism is False. There is no hope in Perterism.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Have you taken English is In School.

This is what happens when you respond in anger in stead of taking some deep breaths and let your mind cool so that you are better able to respond rationally.

And Bold says that my understanding is very flawed. If Scripture does not need interpretation, I leave it alone. I take it for what it says. The same with Daniel 9:24. Basic English grammar, a very easy verse to comprehend.

Well

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Daniel 9:24

Yes

That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Acts 10:37-40

It Says

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

What It Says

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Psalms 2

And Beloved, 70 AD? Really....

Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. Zechariah 8:23

[nebula]

I just wonder why you and Nebula use very, very little scripture in your rebuttals. You always say someones interpretation is wrong, but you never back what you believe with Scripture. But I now why, Perterism is False. There is no hope in Perterism.

I haven't actually been rebutting much, just proposing challenges to your claims.

And I am NOT a Preterist.

[nebula]

Here is an explanation for Daniel 9:24 pointing to Jesus:

~~~~~

In Daniel 9:24 there are six events mentioned which should be the consequences of the incarnation of our Lord: -

I. To finish (לכלא lechalle, to restrain), the transgression which was effected by the preaching of the Gospel, and pouring out of the Holy Ghost among men.

II. To make an end of sins; rather ולהתם חטאות ulehathem chataoth, "to make an end of sin-offerings," which our Lord did when he offered his spotless soul and body on the cross once for all.

III. To make reconciliation (ולכפר ulechapper, "to make atonement or expiation") for iniquity; which he did by the once offering up of himself.

IV. To bring in everlasting righteousness, צדק עלמים tsedek olamim, that is, "the righteousness, or righteous One, of ages;" that person who had been the object of the faith of mankind, and the subject of the predictions of the prophets through all the ages of the world.

V. To seal up (ולחתם velachtom, "to finish or complete") the vision and prophecy; that is, to put an end to the necessity of any farther revelations, by completing the canon of Scripture, and fulfilling the prophecies which related to his person, sacrifice, and the glory that should follow.

VI. And to anoint the Most Holy, קדש קדשים kodesh kodashim, "the Holy of holies." משיח mashach, to anoint, (from which comes משיח mashiach, the Messiah, the anointed one), signifies in general, to consecrate or appoint to some special office. Here it means the consecration or appointment of our blessed Lord, the Holy One of Israel, to be the Prophet, Priest, and King of mankind.

http://clarke.biblecommenter.com/daniel/9.htm

[nebula]

This is Israel Zech12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one who they have pierced and they will mourn........

Israel is also included in Rev 1:7 - Look He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him........

Zech 13:9b - They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say "they are may people", and they will say, "the Lord is our God". The 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled at this time. Israel now becomes grafted back into the Vine, and the six tasks have been completed.

I agree. However, I have never heard anyone equating Daniel 9:24 with anyone other than Jesus before.

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

I have always read this as God doing these things amidst their people and the holy city - which Jesus did.

[Montana Marv]

This is Israel Zech12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one who they have pierced and they will mourn........

Israel is also included in Rev 1:7 - Look He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him........

Zech 13:9b - They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say "they are may people", and they will say, "the Lord is our God". The 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled at this time. Israel now becomes grafted back into the Vine, and the six tasks have been completed.

I agree. However, I have never heard anyone equating Daniel 9:24 with anyone other than Jesus before.

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

I have always read this as God doing these things amidst their people and the holy city - which Jesus did.

Nebula

My take on Daniel 9:24 is: 1. Who has been decreed this prophecy? (your people and your holy city); 2. How long for completion? (Seventy sevens -prophetic weeks) 3. When was this issue to begin? (Dan 9:25 - from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem) 4. When does the Seventy sevens conclude (at the completion of their six tasks - or at the end of the 70th week). 5. Now what are they to complete? (tasks 1-6 of the same verse).

I don't go beyond here; for these are the parameters of the sentence structure. Who was given the prophecy and what are they to do.

Yes one can compare what Christ did (with the six tasks), But, this prophecy is directed to "your people" and "your holy city" This is where I do not budge; Who is the prophecy for, and what are they to do. To understand this basic principle (sentence structure) in this context, I will say it closes many holes on how some will view prophecy. Who is given the prophecy and what are they to do.

In Christ

Montana Marv

This is where I say follow the structure of the sentence (basic English grammar) Seventy sevens are decreed. For your people and your holy city. TO do the following, the rest of the verse.

[nebula]

This is Israel Zech12:10 - And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one who they have pierced and they will mourn........

Israel is also included in Rev 1:7 - Look He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. And all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him........

Zech 13:9b - They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say "they are may people", and they will say, "the Lord is our God". The 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled at this time. Israel now becomes grafted back into the Vine, and the six tasks have been completed.

I agree. However, I have never heard anyone equating Daniel 9:24 with anyone other than Jesus before.

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

I have always read this as God doing these things amidst their people and the holy city - which Jesus did.

Nebula

My take on Daniel 9:24 is: 1. Who has been decreed this prophecy? (your people and your holy city); 2. How long for completion? (Seventy sevens -prophetic weeks) 3. When was this issue to begin? (Dan 9:25 - from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem) 4. When does the Seventy sevens conclude (at the completion of their six tasks - or at the end of the 70th week). 5. Now what are they to complete? (tasks 1-6 of the same verse).

I don't go beyond here; for these are the parameters of the sentence structure. Who was given the prophecy and what are they to do.

Yes one can compare what Christ did (with the six tasks), But, this prophecy is directed to "your people" and "your holy city" This is where I do not budge; Who is the prophecy for, and what are they to do. To understand this basic principle (sentence structure) in this context, I will say it closes many holes on how some will view prophecy. Who is given the prophecy and what are they to do.

In Christ

Montana Marv

This is where I say follow the structure of the sentence (basic English grammar) Seventy sevens are decreed. For your people and your holy city. TO do the following, the rest of the verse.

But God incarnated Himself via "your people", He was handed over to be crucified by "your people" and this took place in and around "your holy city."