Preterism versus Futurism

[JohnD]

Another thing about Preterism... it is antiprophetic. When it takes the prophecies about the most terrible time known to man and relegates them to a supposed past fulfillment it is anti-prophetic when those prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Taking the text literally, as I said previously, there will be Jewish Temple sacrifices in the time of the end up to 1290 days until the end of time / human history. This is a time set in scripture to be counted back from the end. Obviously. Literally.

[JohnD]

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before.

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

*****************************************************************************

It seems there is another organization that al;so claims Jesus returned invisibly around 1914...

Here are the scriptures that disprove JW's claim that Jesus already returned...

Revelation 1:7 (KJV)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Acts 1:11 (KJV)

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Logos1.

Apparently, my post was lost in the conflict; I will try again:

I would add also a query concerning when the Euphrates dried up! I'd like to know!

Revelation 16:12

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance.

Remember one of your most renowned futurists teachers tells how the Euphrates was dried up 500 years before so the Persians could enter Babylon and take the city by diverting the river’s flow.

Another interpretation explained by Stuart is that this references the Euphrates being crossed swiftly and with ease by the Roman Legions that were drawn from that region as well as the historical documentation of auxiliary kings such as Antiochus of Commagene and Sohemus of Sopbene who assisted in the invasion of Judea.

Not a big issue to see this easily resolved historically.

I noticed you also failed to be able to explain away Matthew 10:23. It is a great stumbling block for futurists. At best they need to torture the words to mean something that is impossible and laughable.

I'll take your challenge of Matthew 10:23. You see, even though I've been called a partial Preterist and may consider myself to be one because of my interpretation of Yeshua`s prophecy on Har HaZeitiym, I am still confidently a Futurist.

Let's start with the WHOLE context of Matthew 10:23:

Matt 10:1-11:1

10 1 Yeshua called his twelve talmidim and gave them authority to drive out unclean spirits and to heal every kind of disease and weakness. 2 These are the names of the twelve emissaries:

First, Shim‘on, called Kefa,

and Andrew his brother,

Ya‘akov Ben-Zavdai

and Yochanan his brother,

3 Philip

and Bar-Talmai,

T’oma

and Mattityahu the tax-collector,

Ya‘akov Bar-Halfai

and Taddai,

4 Shim‘on the Zealot,

and Y’hudah from K’riot, who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Yeshua sent out with the following instructions: “Don’t go into the territory of the Goyim, and don’t enter any town in Shomron, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el. 7 As you go, proclaim, ‘The Kingdom of Heaven is near,’ 8 heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those afflicted with tzara’at, expel demons. You have received without paying, so give without asking payment. 9 Don’t take money in your belts, no gold, no silver, no copper; 10 and for the trip don’t take a pack, an extra shirt, shoes or a walking stick — a worker should be given what he needs.

11 “When you come to a town or village, look for someone trustworthy and stay with him until you leave. 12 When you enter someone’s household, say, ‘Shalom aleikhem!’ 13 If the home deserves it, let your shalom rest on it; if not, let your shalom return to you. 14 But if the people of a house or town will not welcome you or listen to you, leave it and shake its dust from your feet! 15 Yes, I tell you, it will be more tolerable on the Day of Judgment for the people of S’dom and ‘Amora than for that town!

16 “Pay attention! I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, so be as prudent as snakes and as harmless as doves. 17 Be on guard, for there will be people who will hand you over to the local Sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as a testimony to them and to the Goyim. 19 But when they bring you to trial, do not worry about what to say or how to say it; when the time comes, you will be given what you should say. 20 For it will not be just you speaking, but the Spirit of your heavenly Father speaking through you.

21 “A brother will betray his brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death. 22 Everyone will hate you because of me, but whoever holds out till the end will be preserved from harm. 23 When you are persecuted in one town, run away to another. Yes indeed; I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Isra’el before the Son of Man comes.

24 “A talmid is not greater than his rabbi, a slave is not greater than his master. 25 It is enough for a talmid that he become like his rabbi, and a slave like his master. Now if people have called the head of the house Ba‘al-Zibbul, how much more will they malign the members of his household! 26 So do not fear them; for there is nothing covered that will not be uncovered, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim on the housetops.

28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom. 29 Aren’t sparrows sold for next to nothing, two for an assarion? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s consent. 30 As for you, every hair on your head has been counted. 31 So do not be afraid, you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me in the presence of others I will also acknowledge in the presence of my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Don’t suppose that I have come to bring peace to the Land. It is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword! 35 For I have come to set...

36 a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,

so that a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

37 Whoever loves his father or mother more than he loves me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than he loves me is not worthy of me. 38 And anyone who does not take up his execution-stake and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his own life will lose it, but the person who loses his life for my sake will find it.

40 “Whoever receives you is receiving me, and whoever receives me is receiving the One who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive the reward a prophet gets, and anyone who receives a tzaddik because he is a tzaddik will receive the reward a tzaddik gets. 42 Indeed, if someone gives just a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my talmid — yes! — I tell you, he will certainly not lose his reward!”

11 1 After Yeshua had finished instructing the twelve talmidim, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns nearby.

CJB

These were SPECIFIC instructions that He was giving His twelve emissaries. They were to be His heralds in all the towns and villages of Isra'el! Yeshua` was making His rounds to each one of the towns and villages of Isra'el and Y'hudah, declaring to them the good news about the Kingdom from the sky and demonstrating the truth by the miracles He performed to validate and substantiate His claim! They, too, were given power over sicknesses and weaknesses and daemons and tsara'at (leprosy) and even death itself to demonstrate and validate THEIR words, as well! They were giving God's message; so, to prove their words came from God, they were given God's power!

So, what Yeshua` was telling them in verse 23 is that He would catch up to them before they had covered all the towns and villages, every burg and hamlet, on His route!

23 When you are persecuted in one town, run away to another. Yes indeed; I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Isra’el before the Son of Man comes.

It was for that particular mission! It is only for the 3.5 years in which Yeshua` offered Himself to be Isra'el's King because He was God's Messiah, God's ANOINTED TO BE KING! This verse has NOTHING to do with ANY future past that time period, not after Yeshua` was resurrected and not when Yeshua` physically returns!

The GREATEST hurdle for a Preterist, IMO, is the promise in Acts 1:9-11 and the prophecy of Rev. 1:7:

Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

KJV

Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

KJV

[Floatingaxe]

Hello, John...

Simply put, scripture says,

Matthew 24:36

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

If preterism was true, then this passage of scripture would be a lie to us in this age, and eschatological references in scripture would be moot, not to mention many other exhortations.

A very good point.

In regards Matt 24:36 don’t read things into it that are not there.

The Apostles didn’t know the exact date and minute true, but they did certainly have a general sense of the time as the scripture makes very clear. You can see the progression of their time statements as you move through the NT.

For example in Hebrews 1:2 they use the term last days, but further along in 1 John 2:18 it is the last hour. Notice the progression from last days to last hour.

We really should give the Apostles a little credit. After all they were the inspired ones not us. To argue with their perception of time is to deny their divine inspiration and thus dispute scripture.

*Just a note as I get back in the work week it will further between my postings.

Give the Lord the credit for telling us what to look for so that we don't jump ahead of ourselves and fail in understanding the signs of the times, and then fail Him by preaching error. As the word stands today, as relevant as it remains, we still are looking to His glorious return.

Preterists argue with the entire concept of the Lord's return.

[Guest]

Believer's Trust

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephanians 4:29

____________

_________

_______

___

.... Wowie.... another even longer post to flaunt your victimhood. Maybe you should start your own thread to journal it instead of taking up space in here where we are trying to debate. You know debate or get out of the way. Fish or cut bait.

If history is any indication though you will triple down on your victim status and come back with an even longer post explaining heavens knows what that none of us really cares to read about—even if I’m the only one willing to tell you that straight up. You’re beating a dead horse with your victim status. Let go and move on man....

Dear One, Moving On Up

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

And Child

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2 Timothy 2:24

Love

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Titus 3:2

The Beloved

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17

Knowing Your Faults

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15

____________

_________

______

__

A

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14

Taste

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:22-24

Of Truth

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 John 4:7-8

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest]

..... In regards Matt 24:36 don’t read things into it that are not there....

No

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 1 Peter 1:20-21

No

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Matthew 24:36-42

No We Won't

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

[Montana Marv]

Logos1

Since all is past; Who are you in Christ Jesus?

In Christ

Montana Marv

That is a pretty open ended question. Not sure what you are driving at.

I believe in most Baptist beliefs just that all prophecy is fulfilled. I believe in the triune God. The inerrant Word of God. All scripture is inspired. Salvation by faith not works.

Logos1

In essence, if you are correct in that all was completed in 70 AD, why did it take Rome another 3 years to capture Masada. Also why did Rome continue to have influence until about 350 AD.

Zech 8:3 - This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth and the mountain will of the Lord Almighty will be called the Holy Mountain.

Zech 8:4,5 - This is what the Lord Almighty says: Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. The city streets will be filled with boys and girls playing there.

Zech 8:11,12 - But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as I did in the past, declares the Lord Almighty. The seed will grow well, the vine will its fruit, the ground will produce its crops, and the heavens will drop their dew. I will give all these things as an inheritance to the remnant of this people.

Rome scattered those of Israel from 67 - 73 AD. Opps, all was not finished in 70 AD.

I asked my question because if you are correct; the Bride has already be taken away, the Church is Gone. If you still take communion, you are a farce, as are all who have taken communion over the past 1900 years.

I Cor 11:26 - For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. So if you do take communion, you are proclaiming Christs death until He Comes. Future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Incoming~!

And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. Luke 17:23-24

[Steve_S]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

For the preterists, who must this be?

[Bold Believer]

quote name='JohnDB' timestamp='1324265451' post='1750717']

Wow. I was going to try to respond to each reply to my OP, but this argument has taken on a life of its own. Borderline childish in some cases, I'm afraid.

I am a futurist because it is what the Bible literally teaches. When I say "literally" I mean "literally." Preterists (full and partial) tend to spiritualize much scripture to make it seem to support their preconceived ideals or interpolations of very subjective terms in scripture like "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. to which I persistently ask what the Preterist does with the passage:

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

...hoping that someday someone of the Preterist persuasion would not slough off a verse of holy scripture as they do. Because Preterism would make a good point at certain passages if "soon," "near," "at hand," etc. only applied to the way we perceive time and that there were no other time tables to consider. But there are many time tables in scripture. And there are many applications of them including the fact that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years to man and a thousand years to man as a day to the Lord. "Soon," "near," "at hand," etc. could be ten thousand years to us.

Matthew 24:15-34 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

70 CE was a repeat of 586 BCE. That alone disproves both forms of Preterism as antisemitic drivel.