The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[oak]

Oak, this whole question over OSAS verses the idea you can lose your salvation verses predestination and election are theological debates that will not end till Jesus comes. It appears to me that the real question you are having is over the question of a faith based salvation verses a works based salvation. If you read Hebrews, the emphasis will be on faith. If you read James, the emphasis will be on works. The truth is that a person who has faith, will act on that faith. If there is no change in your life, you really aren't a person with true faith in Christ. If there is a change in your life after you accept Christ, that shows you do believe.

Look at the examples that are found in Hebrews. Take Rahab the Harlot. She was saved by faith because she believed in the Hebrew God, but that faith was manifested when she hid the spies and sent them away in peace. Then there are the children of Israel at the border of Canaan. Joshua and Caleb believed God, and that faith was manifested in their strong ascertion that they should go in and possess the land immediately, for God had promised to give it to them. The rest of Israel died in the wilderness, as they couldn't go in because of unbelief. That unbelief manifested itself in rebellion. Instead of worrying about OSAS, if you can get this truth, the rest doesn't matter. It is just a theological contention.

I like your answer Butero about seeing change. What I tried to write in my last post, is that, I feel, your faith has to be strong to make any commitment with God and also that the OSAS doctrine may be putting there concept of Salvation in a way, that clouds the building blocks to getting there. Oh, I forgot there’s nothing you can do in the OSAS doctrine.

Either way it’s getting too heated. Let us contest, disagree but still love one another or at least be civil. After all this, strangely I am more convinced bywhat I believed Salvation to be: “If you love me, you will keep my commandments and I will ask my Father to give you another ‘Helper’…” (Jn 14-15,16)

The Catholic’s faith is based on the Pope. The Christian Orthodox faith is based on the Holy Spirit. The Protestant’s faith is based on the Bible. Somehow the Protestant faith seems to keep dividing itself. The new doctrinal faith is OSAS or Eternal Security. Know I will tell you, in all sincerity is that I have a feeling that some Catholics will get in, some Orthodox will get in, and some Protestants will get in, and some OASAS or Eternal Security get in to heaven. Who knows, we may even see a Jehovah’s Witness or a Mormon here or there – though I respectfully feel their doctrine is a bit off. In any event I believe the people who develop the most intimate relationship with God are the winners. I want to apologize for starting this post (I thought it would be shorter) but I did learn a lot from you guys – thank you.

OAK

PS Very impressed with Enoobs knowledge, Butero’s persistent spirit, and Joe Fresno’s meek writing, the list can go on but I am getting tired.

PSS Oh, thanks Bro’ Botz for your special appearance and making your stance known to me.

[Guest]

.... how can that be if our LORD said HE will remove thy candlestick out of his place....

How Indeed ~ Word To The Churches

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Revelation 3:20-23

[enoob57]

That's right FresnoJoe, to him who "overcomes" will receive the crown of Life, not him who is "OSAS"

o·ver·come

   [oh-ver-kuhm] Show IPA verb, -came, -come, -com·ing. verb (used with object) 1. to get the better of in a struggle or conflict; conquer; defeat: to overcome the enemy. 2. to prevail over (opposition, a debility, temptations, etc.); surmount: to overcome one's weaknesses. The word overcome sounds like a verb to me, which is a "doing" word not a "done" word. The Apostle Paul said " Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, "work out" your own salvation with fear and trembling. -Phil2:12 So again, to "work out" is a doing word not a "done" word .

To what mind set are you encouraging the family of God toward?

1. Works to maintain salvation: eternal security rest on your efforts toward good works as exampled

Mt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

our dependence is on God alone! That should be easy to see- we were born as sinners in a world of sin as "all have gone out of the way". We will always have the battle of the flesh and win with thanksgiving to God or lose with repentance and renewed efforts this is how we walk with God to increase in spirit and die in flesh. Not that we should be self righteous pigs but humbled, broken and contrite that we being nothing have by Christ Jesus been made something for His Glory! TO USE TO LEAD OTHERS TO HIMSELF...

2. Grace and repentance to maintain works: eternal security rest on the finished work of Christ

Lk 18:10-14

10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

NKJV

For me is it quite clear to what end Jesus is teaching me here! Now that I am aligned right in the Scripture and my relationship is built totally upon Jesus The Christ I am able to continue in sanctification (becoming like Him in obedience to God)... So then why if by Grace alone we are redeemed how is it by works it is kept and Christ's work wasn't finished for it's completion now rest upon the receiver finished work...

The apology based on the above path of Scripture:

You see Scripture is leading us to know That we are in Christ by the works He, The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Christ does in us as we yield to His Will. This can be understood in this way- When Christ went to the Cross was it His Will or His Father in Heaven. The answer is yes but it was the Son's in flesh to desire for another way yet in Spirit to yield to the Will of His Father! Now we are commanded

Mk 8:34-38

34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

NKJV

So now my desire is for another way not to die to self in the flesh denying it of pleasures and in my spirit by the influence of The Holy Spirit to Live to The Will of God... The mark is then set for me by God that I cannot do in my own strength but only with mind, will and emotion toward that of The Spirit of Christ and this can only be done within a constant relational living, focused upon my Fathers Word, toward an eternity God has already given me as a sealed Son in possession of Him!

My heart is formed thus-

2 Ti 1:8-12

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

Your way is not of committing but half to The Lord- by the keeping of yourself by works, as you are claiming right now. I hear you-> Lord, Lord I have done this in your name and .... The man in personal relationship will need not tell the Lord anything for together They will know what They have done! It is best understood as treasure: as I bend my will toward the death of my own desires He within me produces works by his Will for others to see thus through me He draws others to Himself. So what part of this heart do you see that is not committed to Him? For where your treasure is there your heart will be also...

Love, Steven

[He giveth more grace]

That's right FresnoJoe, to him who "overcomes" will receive the crown of Life, not him who is "OSAS"

o·ver·come

   [oh-ver-kuhm] Show IPA verb, -came, -come, -com·ing. verb (used with object) 1. to get the better of in a struggle or conflict; conquer; defeat: to overcome the enemy. 2. to prevail over (opposition, a debility, temptations, etc.); surmount: to overcome one's weaknesses. The word overcome sounds like a verb to me, which is a "doing" word not a "done" word. The Apostle Paul said " Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, "work out" your own salvation with fear and trembling. -Phil2:12 So again, to "work out" is a doing word not a "done" word .

To what mind set are you encouraging the family of God toward?

1. Works to maintain salvation: eternal security rest on your efforts toward good works as exampled

Mt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NKJV

our dependence is on God alone! That should be easy to see- we were born as sinners in a world of sin as "all have gone out of the way". We will always have the battle of the flesh and win with thanksgiving to God or lose with repentance and renewed efforts this is how we walk with God to increase in spirit and die in flesh. Not that we should be self righteous pigs but humbled, broken and contrite that we being nothing have by Christ Jesus been made something for His Glory! TO USE TO LEAD OTHERS TO HIMSELF...

2. Grace and repentance to maintain works: eternal security rest on the finished work of Christ

Lk 18:10-14

10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

NKJV

For me is it quite clear to what end Jesus is teaching me here! Now that I am aligned right in the Scripture and my relationship is built totally upon Jesus The Christ I am able to continue in sanctification (becoming like Him in obedience to God)... So then why if by Grace alone we are redeemed how is it by works it is kept and Christ's work wasn't finished for it's completion now rest upon the receiver finished work...

The apology based on the above path of Scripture:

You see Scripture is leading us to know That we are in Christ by the works He, The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Christ does in us as we yield to His Will. This can be understood in this way- When Christ went to the Cross was it His Will or His Father in Heaven. The answer is yes but it was the Son's in flesh to desire for another way yet in Spirit to yield to the Will of His Father! Now we are commanded

Mk 8:34-38

34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

NKJV

So now my desire is for another way not to die to self in the flesh denying it of pleasures and in my spirit by the influence of The Holy Spirit to Live to The Will of God... The mark is then set for me by God that I cannot do in my own strength but only with mind, will and emotion toward that of The Spirit of Christ and this can only be done within a constant relational living, focused upon my Fathers Word, toward an eternity God has already given me as a sealed Son in possession of Him!

My heart is formed thus-

2 Ti 1:8-12

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

Your way is not of committing but half to The Lord- by the keeping of yourself by works, as you are claiming right now. I hear you-> Lord, Lord I have done this in your name and .... The man in personal relationship will need not tell the Lord anything for together They will know what They have done! It is best understood as treasure: as I bend my will toward the death of my own desires He within me produces works by his Will for others to see thus through me He draws others to Himself. So what part of this heart do you see that is not committed to Him? For where your treasure is there your heart will be also...

Love, Steven

Ditto's, Steven. What has man to do with salvation? God gives the grace, the faith, - everything is of God concerning salvation, not of Man.

[Guest]

.... how can that be if our LORD said HE will remove thy candlestick out of his place....

How Indeed ~ Word To The Churches

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Revelation 3:20-23

That's right FresnoJoe, to him who "overcomes" will receive the crown of Life, not him who is "OSAS"

It Is To The Churches That Have Left The Love Of The LORD That This Is Addressed To

And It Is Their (Church) Candlestick Which Is In Danger Of Removal

And It Is To The Unbeliever Within These Churches That Jesus Calls Out To Let Him In

Never Never Never Doubt The Power Of The Name Of Jesus

Or The Cleansing Of His Precious And Holy Blood

Or The Seal Of The Holy Ghost

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11

Amen ????

[enoob57]

Firstly as you have Quoted that "It is the churches that have left the love of the LORD that this is addressed to and it is their (church) candlestick that is in danger of removal" How can this be IF EVERYONE IN THAT CHURCH IS Once Saved Always Saved ??? HOW can the LORD remove those who are eternally Saved ?

You are so set in your view of this that you are missing what light is in the world! Light in a Church is the witness of Jesus The Christ as is taught in this passage

Mt 5:14-16

14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

NKJV

and not as you are suggesting as loss of salvation!

What is the "church" ? isn't it the Body of Christ made up of "individuals" washed,sanctified and justified in Christ ,born again by the Holy Spirit ? in Rev ch2 verse7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that "overcometh" will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." JESUS says "To "him" that overcomes, HE does not say to the " church" who overcomes. Rev2:11 says "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Everyone knows the Church is comprised of individuals being brought into unity with God! How does losing your witness to a dark and dying world by Church or individual member prove loss of salvation? It is in fact lose of reward to give to The Lord...

" He" that "overcometh" shall not be hurt of the second death." Is not the individual in danger of losing his crown if he does not overcome ? Why would our LORD say in Rev3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: " hold that fast" which thou hast, that " no man take thy crown." v12him that "overcometh will i make a pillar in my Temple" ?

To be hurt by and to to be as the second death is in my estimation a vast division in Scripture 'rightly divide!'... and crown here is one of 5 in Scripture and are all toward rewards given us by God to lay at His Son's feet at the glorification of our Lord Jesus 'The Judgment Seat of Chirst'...

1. Incorruptible Crown 1Cor 9:25 it is the reward of overcoming sins in our bodies in living relationship with Jesus.

2. Crown of righteousness 2Tim 4:7-8 it is the reward believing this world is not our home nor these bodies we are in.

3. Crown of Life Jam 1:12, Rev 2:10 it is the reward for passing through life and enduring the trials of life along the way shining in Joy.

4. Crown of Joy Phil 4:1, 1Thes 2:19 it is the reward of letting His light shine out to others and effecting their lives toward Him.

5. Crown of Glory 1Pet 5:4 it is the reward staying true to the course and finishing the work the Lord has for you.

Lastly, Rom11:21-22 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, " IF" (subjunctive-conditional) thou continue in his goodness: " otherwise thou also shalt be cut off "". How can you be cut off if you are Once Saved Always Saved ? If we do not believe every word written in Scripture then we may as well throw it away, so i believe that the "OSAS" doctrine does not stand up and line up with Scripture.

Rom 11:11-36 is not about keeping or loosing of salvation it is about the Glory and Majesty of Our Lord and how He has through history brought about our ability to see the Majesty and Wonder of His Salvation both of Jew and Gentile {AS} He alone through Him alone is able to do through His election... Yours is a focus on me, myself and I and how sad for you to miss the greatness of His Glory in this passage because of a Theological point you hold to so desperately! A point of logic God cannot have a plus for Himself-> He simply is without beginning and without end....and all we are here begin in His Good Pleasure...

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

Lastly, Rom11:21-22 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, " IF" (subjunctive-conditional) thou continue in his goodness: " otherwise thou also shalt be cut off "". How can you be cut off if you are Once Saved Always Saved ?

Well, the problem here is that you are ignoring the overall context. Paul is making an appeal to the Gentile to be blessing to Israel by bringing them the Gospel. The Gentiles are blessed by the Gospel that came through Israel and now they are being asked to take the Gospel to the Jewish people.

Paul's admonition pertains to Christians not being arrogant toward the natural branches (the Jews). The conequence of this arroagance is being "cut off" of the tree into which they were grafted in.

To be "cut off" in this passsage, does not mean to lose salvatoin, because being grafted in was not a reference to being saved. Being grafted in refers to participation in community. If it were a reference to salvation, Gentile salvation would be conditional upon how they treat the Jews. That would be an absurd notion. The point is that they would no longer experience the blessings of being grafted into Israel. They would still be saved, but they would miss out on the blessings that come from community participation in the commonwealth of Israel which is pictured by the natural and wild branches on the olive tree.

[enoob57]

" The Holy Scriptures speak for themselves " and this post is about the possible false teaching of being Once Saved Always Saved ? I notice that the questions i have asked in my previous posts have not all been answered and the ones you have addressed are only "your" interpretation of Scripture. With all due respect, i disagree, i believe GODs word speaks for itself, is as plain as day and does not need a Scholar to expound for HE has revealed them unto babes. Mat11:25. Lk10:21

I will warn you-> that you will not want to be before The Holy Righteous presence of God thinking that any portion of being there is due to anything of your own power ... Just examine the ones who have been brought before Him: Isaiah, John, Paul... they either fell down as if dead or was so taken in they thought angels need to be bowed to, Or were unable to speak at all of what was there!

I fear for the works based salvation people! Mainly the for the simplicity of seeing possibly hearts that are lifted up in their own effort of doing! For you are surely saying you must see active works or people are not saved and that is Pharisaical at best!

Here is the heart of the children! Is it the same as yours?

Lk 17:7-10

"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not say to him, 'Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink'? 9 "He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10 "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

NASU

Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

" He" that "overcometh" shall not be hurt of the second death." Is not the individual in danger of losing his crown if he does not overcome ?

But how does a person overcome??? The Bible tells who the overcomers are:

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1Jn 5:4-5)

The person who has believed in Christ and received Him as Savior HAS overcome. An overcomer is a believer. So "he that overcometh" is he that believes in Jesus. The Lord promises that He who believes in Jesus (overcometh) shall not be hurt of the second death. The phrase "shall not" in Greek is a double negative that adds empahsis. It means, "no, not never."

WHat you have is an assurance of salvatoin for the believer. The person who believes in Jesus (overcometh) shall not, no never be hurt of the second death. The verse actually supports eternal security because it is a promise to the believer that he will not ever face the same fate as that of unbelievers.

[Guest shiloh357]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."(Jam14-26) AKJV "SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS< AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS"

Well, i guess i am guilty of Salvation by works hey ......Secondly Steven, i do not trust your Translation (NASV) so when you quote Scripture from that, then we are obviously in disagreement on that matter too.

I think you need to understand that James is not talking about saving faith. James is talking about profession. James' point is that a mere profession of faith is not sufficient. In fact, James is addressing the error of the pharisees who thought that their beliefs were sufficient on their own. James point is that real faith produces a particular lifestyle. Faith, James says, is like love. Both are operative in nature. Faith produces a particular quality of living wherein a true profession of faith is accompanied by corresponding action. His examples in the lives of Rahab and Abaraham show that their faith was affirmed by their deeds.

James is not talking about being justified in the sense that Paul uses the term in Romans 3-4. He is using the word "justify" in a totaly different sense. It means to affirm or uphold. If you make a particular statement or claim that is later found to be true, you are "justified" in the sense that the truthfulness and integrity of your words has been upheld or affirmed. That is what it means to be "justified by works" in James. It has NOTHING to do with how a person is saved from sin.