The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest shiloh357]

Look, faith apart from works is dead, so when you come defending OSAS by salvation alone then i believe you are wrong.

Fine, but that's not what I am defending....

We could go round and round in circles on this issue so lets keep it simple.

Okay. I make it real simple for you.

I believe that one can become an apostate(fall away) 2Thes2:3 ,one can depart from the faith like Demas-2Tim4:10) 1Tim4:1, one can be castaway 1Cor9:27, one can be cut off Rom11:22,one can depart from the living GOD Heb3:12-14, one can seem to come short of it Heb4:1, one can make shipwreck their faith 1Tim1:19,one can have his name blotted out of the Book of Life Rev3:5 +22:19 one can be lukewarm and be spewed forth from the LORDs mouth Rev3:16 etc etc and all these charges are to the "Brethren" and not the "unsaved".

Yeah, but none of those refer to losing salvation. That is a value you have assigned in your ignorance, to those passages, plus, the fact that you can't actually address the what I said says a lot about the weakness and indefensibility of your position.

Not only that, i find many "conditional " statements in regard to "maintaining " ones Salvation

You are not good enough to maintain your salvation. You were not good enough get your saved, and you are not good enoug to keep yourself saved. Salvation is not tied to what you do. Salvation is not what you keep. Salvation is what keeps you.

[Guest]

.... If we do not believe every word written in Scripture then we may as well throw it away, so i believe that the "OSAS" doctrine does not stand up and line up with Scripture....

Beloved

And I said, My strength and my hope is perished from the LORD:

Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me.

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. Lamentations 3:18-24

All I Know

He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. John 9:25

Is Jesus Saves

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Bless His Holy Name

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

How do you explain mans free will ?

I approach it this way... I have the power to live in sin. The ability is there; but the will to live in sin isn't there. A good parent will not hurt their child, not because they don't have the power to do so, but there is nothing in their heart to prompt such an act. They have the ability, but not the desire.

In the same way, there is nothing the world has to offer that I am interested in. I have the best part of heaven living inside me right now. Why would I want the world? I mean, if you can have prime rib, why settle for a balogna sandwich? It's not that God has taken away my freedom to walk away. Rather, any desire or temptation to forsake Him cannot compete with my desire to serve Him. There is nothing in me that wants to forsake the Lord. A true Christian won't fall away because there is nothing in them that wants to fall away.

For people like yourself who believe that “once saved, always saved” I ask: how do you relate your beliefs to Matthew 13: 20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation then why would Jesus say: “When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?

What makes you think that is talking about a Christian or salvation?? Part of the problem is that in your approach to a parable. A parable is a story with one central idea. You are trying to force "salvation" on a passage that is not designed to address salvation.

Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

(Mat 13:21)

The word for offended doesn't mean to "fall away." It means, "to stumble" which, if you are going to argue that we lose salvation each and every time we stumble, salvation would not worth a wooden nickel. Nevertheless, the topic Jesus is addressing is not related to salvation. Rather He is illustrating the Kingdom of God and giving us the key to understanding how the Kingdom works. That is how the parable is realted in Mark 4.

The key to how we are saved is in John 3:16:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

I understand that the word ‘believes’ in the Greek is an on-going verb (this is not so easy to determine because Greek is a contextual language). It really says that unless we keep on believing in Him we will perish and not have everlasting life. We are saved by Grace as long as we keep on believing in Him.

That is not really accurate. The word ho pisteúōn is a present participle. The sense of this word is a that we are taking hold to God in order to keep from falling. Rather the sense of it is that once a person believes, he will continue to believe. Yes, it means a continual ongonig faith, but that is because believing is what believers do. They continue to believe because that is the fruit of the transformed heart.

That is where your view falls short. You fail to take into account that a Christian is a person with a transformed heart. They are a new person with a sincere heart to serve God. Authentic Christians will never fall away into apostasy because they have a new nature and have been recreated as new creations.

Let’s check another Scripture.

Mark 13:13 says:

[Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must stand firm (for Him) until you die. Conversely He is therefore saying that those who do not stand firm will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himself.

Yes, but you are ignoring the context of that verse. Jesus is talking about tribulation. He is not talking about salvation from sin. The words "saved" and "salvation" have five basic meanings in Greek: Restoration, Deliverance, Preservation, Safety, and Healing. Jesus is talking about being preserved through tribulation/persecution. He is not saying that our salvation from sin depends on our own efforts.

“We have nothing of our own but our will. It is the only thing which God has so placed in our own power that we can make an offering of it to Him.” St John Vianney (The Curé d’Ars – 1786-1859)

If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.

If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong!

God doesn't remove free will at all. What He did is recreate us. What He did is renew our hearts and gave us a heart that wants to love and serve Him above all else. It doesn't mean we won't mess up from time to time, but that is what grace is for. It is not the eradication of free will but the presence of an all consuming hunger and passion for Jesus.

I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong...

The Bible isn't wrong, but you are.

Here are verses that talk about the believers conditional security:

Most of those are not even addressing salvation at all. Judging how you have handled the above verses, it doesnt appear that you are really able to exegete a passsage properly to support your position.

We have the example of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven of his unpaid debt, but then later had his debt reinstated because of his immoral conduct (Mat. 18:23-35). This parable clearly shows how the Lord can graciously pardon an individual and then later execute the punishment that they deserve.

We also see the example of the Apostle Judas who lost his salvation. Judas was a disciple of the Lord and therefore he left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33). He picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27) and even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Mat. 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; Jn. 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Mat. 10:1-4, Mat. 10:16), who received His truth (Mat. 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Mat. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70) and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for. His name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5).

So we can see that the atonement does not automatically or unconditionally save anyone. Many of those for whom Christ died will ultimately perish for their sin because they choose to continue in their sin (Heb. 10:26-31) instead of sinning no more. Though Christ died for all, many are on the broad road (Mat. 7:13). It’s possible to deny the Lord that bought us and thereby fall into condemnation (2 Pet. 2:1).

LOL, you are really stretching the truth there about Judas. There is nothing in Judas' profile that indicates that he was, at any point, a genuine follower of Jesus. The Bible makes generalized comments about the disciples, but never makes any positive statements about Judas specifically. You are trying to lump him in with the other disciples, but Judas at no time in his life EVER said or did anything to indicate any genuine devotion to Jesus. He was a "disciple" but he was never an authentic follower of Jesus. Jesus did make Judas the treasurer because he trusted Him. He made Him the treasturer to expose his true nature as a thief. The Scriptures you provide don't really say what you are assigning to them. You are really reaching and exaggerating what the text says in most cases and in some the text doesn't even come close to what you saying.

Judas is not an example of a person losing salvation and has nothing to do with the atonement. Judas did not receive the atonement and then walk away from it.

As for your reference to 2 Peter, 2... That is not talking about Christians. It is talking about false prophets and their followers.

The wrath of God is impartial (Ex. 32:33; Deut. 10:17; Rom. 2:9; 2 Cor. 10:6; Col. 3:25; 2 Pet. 1:17; 1 Jn. 3:15; Rev. 21:8; Rev. 22:15), so anyone who consciously or knowingly transgresses or revolts is under condemnation

Which is the condition of the world. It is in a state of rebellion. But Christians are those who don't rebel. We remain faithful, because that is what Christians do.

[enoob57]

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?

can faith save him?

Let's Start this off right with the passage 'What does it profit' if a man claims to be what he is not? This is the teaching of James!

In fact this is the the whole scenario of Scripture to witness the truth of anything!

The Word of God has a specific purpose Jn 18:37 To bring witness to truth into the world... The O.T. was here wasn't it witness of truth ?... So why at the coming of Christ did He say He came to bring witness to truth? This is the point you cannot resolve within you because of your demand that Scripture must be seen as 'I do->I get' so your logic then flows to 'I don't do-> I don't get'... If your an honest man and not wanting to hold to error you will recognize this to be a continual pounding of the worlds system -> and also is in line with this thinking! Matter of fact this thinking leads to where we are presently in our world 'I am not doing anything that does not benefit me'!

Now do you do to benefit yourself from God? It is obvious that you do for it is what you preach-> 'do to get'. I see nothing new, no new witness of truth, the world has done this since histories have been written... you are just mimicking or parroting what has been in place since sin has entered the world! Christ brought with Him 'WITNESS OF TRUTH' something that was not here -what that is - is what we are trying to witness to you!

Because God has not given us the ability to see the actual heart of men... we then must rely on actions which they are producing! However we cannot use this for a surety to judge them! We can only operate by faith that their actions are of God in them so they do! The plot thickens- we have a deceiver among us and he has followers and they set themselves up to do what they do 'deceive'. Here is the marvelous witness of truth Christ brought into the world: That when we apply our faith in those around us that say they are His and are found not to be, by their intent of harm and destruction, we remain unaffected for our faith was in Jesus and not them and He, in my heart, continues His Works within me as witness to other of His presence within me . This was not in the world before Christ Jesus came and gave it! Now it is no longer I but Christ that is in me...

Now with this mind set we see the rest of this passage as the Witness of truth In Christ Jesus and the works He constrains us to do by His most wonderful gift of all His Love... With The Lords Love all things become Life and that Life 'IS' everlasting seen in works that are done as that motive of giving not to receive back but because He has an endless supply and we do not have to be frugal with it!

so shown here:

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. " Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."(Jam14-26) AKJV "SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS< AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS"

In the end I will want to give everything back to Him for as I go I recognize them to be His already!

The works that His does within me...

Well, i guess i am guilty of Salvation by works

Tit 3:5-7

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

NKJV

hey ......Secondly Steven, i do not trust your Translation (NASV) so when you quote Scripture from that, then we are obviously in disagreement on that matter too.

Sound like you in disagreement with God's Word!

There is wisdom in the council of many.... The original writings were Greek and in the last days knowledge has been allowed to increase fulfilling Daniel's Prophecy... I believe it is safe to study to show thyself approved by God... Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess it comes down to "Perserverence/Patiently enduring " Versus "Once Saved Always Saved" and my arguments are primarily to steer those professing Christ who may not be born again away from the notion that they are saved eternally because of a sinners prayer or because they think they have a license to sin.

I don't believe in anything called "OSAS." I believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security, which is not the same. OSAS is a view that really espouses the notion that once you are saved, you can live any way you want without accountability. You can live in habitual sin without fear of God. Eternal Security is completely different. It is the view that the AUTHENTIC Christian is secure, not because he lives good enough, but because God is faithful. He is eternally secure on the grounds that God is not going to change His mind and decide tomorrow to revoke salvation. Eternal Secuirty is predicated both on God's faithfulness AND the authentic profession of faith. See eternal security only applies to those who have truly turned their lives over to Jesus and have truly accepte Him as their savior. They have been transformed and have been recreated as New Creations in Christ. They are eternally secure and are not looking for a way to sin.

The notion that you can be saved today, lost tomorrow, saved the next day, lost the day after that, is paralzying. You cannot share with others a hope you don't really know if you have or not. Evangelism is thwarted if you cannot know if you are truly saved from one day to the next. If you have to spend each day never really knowing if you are saved or not, never knowing if God accepted you today or not, forget witnessing to others; you can't even get your own affairs in order because you are too busy trying to make sure you don't go to hell if you die tonight. That is not holiness or joy or victorious living. Who would want to be saved into a system that leaves fearing for your eternal soul from one minute to the next. If that is what salvation is, it isn't worth dime.

I also believe this OSAS doctrine takes the fear of GOD away from those who would actually believe it and think they are born again when they are not, and so they are deceived by thinking it. to be true.

I know many people raised in pentacostal churches and other denominations who taught that they could lose their salvation and it didn't stop them from getting drunk, sleeping around, etc. The knowledge that they, according to their own theology were going to hell did not cause them to fear God or stop their sinning. A true fear of God can only come from the HolySpirit. Threats of hell and eternal destruction do provide any deterrent to living in habitual sin.

To save a whole lot of time and to address your first argument that a Christian can never fall away into apostasy. please answer me these questions with a "yes" or a "no"; Does not the word "apostasy" mean departing from the faith ?

Yes. But departing from the faith is not the same as departing from Christ. There are many "professing" Christians whose profession is false. They participate in the Christian religion, but do have Christ. When persecution and tirals arise they abandon Christianity.

Did not Paul say that in the latter days some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ? is he talking to the Brethren ?

Yes and Yes, but he was not talking ABOUT the bretheren. Those things tend to act as a sifter and we can see who truly belongs to Christ and those who do not.

and finally, (for there are many verses regarding a falling away) How can one depart from the faith if one is not in the faith to begin with ?

As I stated above, they are not abandoning Christ because they never had Christ to begin with. They are abandoning Christianity. One can participate in Christianity without being a Christian or having received Christ. They can fool us for a while, but their facade ususally ends up giving way to spiritual seduction, and the difficulties of life.

John said it like this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

(1Jn 2:19)

[enoob57]

Well if your going to define OSAS as get saved so you can sin... but that wasn't the way I was taught it! It was as your eternal security or security of the believer! So I will put it to the heart - if Christ lives in you and you are at war with your flesh winning and losing yet already won by His Word of Promise... this is my belief! Well really my experience... Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

Well " Shiloh", after all this i finally understand where you stand. We may not be in agreement on all matters but i also believe that once you have tasted of the LORD it is impossible to turn back; -

Having tasted of the Lord, doesn't necessarily mean you have been saved. I don't think that is a term that is equivalent to having received salvation.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe being once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost being SAVED !

I didn't say that the people desicribed in Hebrews 6 were not saved. I am saying that relying on such terms is not wise because it is possible to know the truth and even acknowledge it, but not receive it. It is possible to be enlightened that Jesus is the Savior and reject Him anyway. You can taste of the heavenly gift and not like what you tasted and still prefer sin over what God offers. You can be a recipient of the blessings of the Holy Spirit over the congregation without partaking of His Person.

As for Hebrews 6, it is not a warning about apostsasy. The line of thought actually begins Hebrews 5:12. The complaint of the writer is not that they have forsaken the Lord or are asostate. His complaint is that they have not grown spiriitually to where they should be. They are still drinking milk when they should be eating meat. They are still studying about the elementary principles when they should be studying more advanced things. In essewnce his complaint is that they have become stagnate and lazy in their walk with the Lord.

The word for fall away is not apostasia in the Greek. It is the word parapipto, which means to "fall beside" or "wander." The warning here is not about losing salvatoin. It is about divine chastening and about becoming a castaway. A castaway is someone who has been disqualified from service. They are still Christians, but they have suffered the loss of reward and they have lost divine approval.

[He giveth more grace]

I really think you just like an argument, you have to have the last word or both. " O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him "Ps34:8. " FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST " Heb6:4. " As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.2Pet2:3-5 I believe being once enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost being SAVED !

'...Forever', you make it sound so good and inviting and you make me what to get saved all over - I am saved.

[oak]

On this post I made what I thought to be a joke. This did not go over well and it just caused trouble. I erased it because your not missing much. Unfortunately, simply stated, it was a waste of time and I am sorry I ever wrote it.