Why December 25 is Christmas

[other one]

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video....... I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas.

Ah, so it is our fault. Some conspiracy kook make a video perverting the meaning and histoy of Christmas and fabricating and revising mythology in order to assign false values to Christmas and because people are led astray from that video, it is our fault they are led astray because we celebrate Christmas???? Do you not see how ridiculous that is???

It will cost the souls of people I know personally....... so it's not as simple a thing as looking into the Bible and showing you that the bible says not to do something.

But that is the result of video, not result of our celebration of Christmas. You are blaming the wrong thing.

I do remember somewhere God telling the Israelites not to copy the things they saw the people in the lands he was sending them into for he did not want to be worshiped that way...... and when you say to people that a Christmas tree reminds you of Jesus, that really is what you're doing; you will be letting compare what you say and do to what the pagans did/do to Nimrod..

The problem is that the Chrstmas tree is only 700 years old and the tradition began in Christian Europe. We aren't copying the pagans, as the pagans did not invent the tradition of the Christmas tree. The Christmas Tree orginiated with Christians; it's a purely Christian tradition.

As for not posting those places where the Nimrod story comes from, it's kind of hard to do with all the totally vial stuff that is only one click away from most of those sites........ that's why Chuck, Tom and David don't put the stuff up front on their sites as well, but just tell you about what it is.

I see and since they put it on their webiste is MUST be true, because we all know that once it goes on a website it's true...

When these two threads started I really didn't have a problem with you guys having Christmas, but I've received a couple of emails from old work friends trying to sell me on that video and wondering how in the world I could have let myself get involved in all that copycat Christian stuff.....

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ. You see Neb, I have no doubt that you will not be affected by having your Christmas..... but how will it affect the knowledge and decisions of others.

And how responsible are we when we affect others view of the gospel in a negative way.

It's not as simple as looking at a verse and telling you that the Bible says not to do that...... it's as simple as I now know that unless something changes, several of my personal long term acquaintances may actually go to hell over the way I/we have celebrated christmas.

That is simply wrong. People don't go to hell over our celebration of Christmas. Your friends are simply believing what they saw in a video (a very poorly made conspiracy theory-type video) and THAT is where the problem lies. The video is wrong and it is what has led your friends astray. Your firends are evidently not in the habit of checking the sources or the information. They are simply taking what they heard and saw and are running with it without first checking to see if the information is accurate and truthful.

In truth, the problem is that the video gave them an excuse to reject Christ. The video is an enabler for what they had already done in their heart. The video makes a bunch of baseless, historically erroneous claims, but they are willing to swallow it all hook, line and sinker, because they rejected Christ any way. Now they have something to throw out to justify their unbelief.

So you have said Shiloh...... but I read in many many places and in many many books that people involved evergreen trees into their pagan belief systems, and December 25th is tied into their time of year to worship the sun. The Bible does not give us any direction on celebrating the Birth of Christ in December and why you think it's OK to use the very dates for pagan worship to celebrate Christ's birthday when we've not even been instructed to do so is beyond me.

The world is going to hell in a hand basket, and the church is so powerless that most can't even keep demons out of their midst.... and you guys seem to think that celebrating the birth of our Lord on existing pagan holidays that we know is nowhere close to his birthday.... I just sit back and wonder at how many times you all have told folks on this board that you don't accept things because they are not in the Word and then take all this stuff in as great..... I have to just sit back and shake my head in wonder. as to how you do it.

but as I'm off for a few days I guess I'll just have to ponder about it......

You guys enjoy your day...... and if you get the chance ask Jesus if he's happy about you buying gifts for everyone but him, and don't forget to make a fuss over that tree. When you light your yule time log, as Him if he like the flames and how the smoke rises up the chemney.... but especially ask him if he minds celebrating his birthday on someone Else's special day.... Do some serious praying about it and see what answers you get.

***shakes head and walks away toward a family gathering*****

[oldzimm]

Neb, go to goggle and do a search on Zeitgeist and watch the first hour of that video....... I personally know many many people who have bought into that video and will never ever accept the gospel, and it's largely due to the non Biblical things that Christianity at large has accepted as OK concerning the Birth of Christ and the things that are done to celebrate Christmas.

Ah, so it is our fault. Some conspiracy kook make a video perverting the meaning and histoy of Christmas and fabricating and revising mythology in order to assign false values to Christmas and because people are led astray from that video, it is our fault they are led astray because we celebrate Christmas???? Do you not see how ridiculous that is???

It will cost the souls of people I know personally....... so it's not as simple a thing as looking into the Bible and showing you that the bible says not to do something.

But that is the result of video, not result of our celebration of Christmas. You are blaming the wrong thing.

I do remember somewhere God telling the Israelites not to copy the things they saw the people in the lands he was sending them into for he did not want to be worshiped that way...... and when you say to people that a Christmas tree reminds you of Jesus, that really is what you're doing; you will be letting compare what you say and do to what the pagans did/do to Nimrod..

The problem is that the Chrstmas tree is only 700 years old and the tradition began in Christian Europe. We aren't copying the pagans, as the pagans did not invent the tradition of the Christmas tree.

As for not posting those places where the Nimrod story comes from, it's kind of hard to do with all the totally vial stuff that is only one click away from most of those sites........ that's why Chuck, Tom and David don't put the stuff up front on their sites as well, but just tell you about what it is.

I see and since they put it on their webiste is MUST be true, because we all know that once it goes on a website it's true...

When these two threads started I really didn't have a problem with you guys having Christmas, but I've received a couple of emails from old work friends trying to sell me on that video and wondering how in the world I could have let myself get involved in all that copycat Christian stuff.....

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ. You see Neb, I have no doubt that you will not be affected by having your Christmas..... but how will it affect the knowledge and decisions of others.

And how responsible are we when we affect others view of the gospel in a negative way.

It's not as simple as looking at a verse and telling you that the Bible says not to do that...... it's as simple as I now know that unless something changes, several of my personal long term acquaintances may actually go to hell over the way I/we have celebrated christmas.

That is simply wrong. People don't go to hell over our celebration of Christmas. Your friends are simply believing what they saw in a video (a very poorly made conspiracy theory-type video) and THAT is where the problem lies. The video is wrong and it is what has led your friends astray. Your firends are evidently not in the habit of checking the sources or the information. They are simply taking what they heard and saw and are running with it without first checking to see if the information is accurate and truthful.

In truth, the problem is that the video gave them an excuse to reject Christ. The video is an enabler for what they had already done in their heart. The video makes a bunch of baseless, historically erroneous claims, but they are willing to swallow it all hook, line and sinker, because they rejected Christ any way. Now they have something to throw out to justify their unbelief.

That is the bottom line or Paragraph. Atheist debate Christians in hopes of convincing themselves that they are right, because they know that if they are wrong, the trapdoor only swings one way.

As for Christmas trees, I put one up every year and I don't worship it. The tree is a seasonal decoration and I always get a real tree, that is one of the fresh outdoor smells I like in the house. The smell of what the neighboring farmer spreads on his fields can stay outside the house.

How about them evil yule logs, disgusting aren't they? I put a yule log on the fire every Christmas, matter of fact I put yule logs on the fire every day during winter, you see I got this thing where I don't like waking up to a cold house (how foolish of me). I don't call yule logs by that name, I call them oak logs, but if calling them yule logs makes them burn hotter, okay then, their yule logs.

[Guest shiloh357]

So you have said Shiloh...... but I read in many many places and in many many books that people involved evergreen trees into their pagan belief systems, and December 25th is tied into their time of year to worship the sun.

1. But I am not talking about the generic use of evergreens. Do you have any archeological support for the modern Christmas tree tradition having originated in the ancient near east??? I can imagine that there are pagan festivals that did use evergreens and other types of trees for their celebrations. The problem is that, as the OP pointed out, similarity doesn't mean causation. What YOU need to supply is evidence of a direct link. I will admit that pagan elements have crept into our celebrations, but Christmas is not a pagan festival. Just because they happen to be on the same day doesn't mean that one caused the other. What ancient pagans did with evergreens is not at all similar to our modern Christmas tree.

The Bible does not give us any direction on celebrating the Birth of Christ in December and why you think it's OK to use the very dates for pagan worship to celebrate Christ's birthday when we've not even been instructed to do so is beyond me.

The Bible also does not command us to attend Church on Sunday morning. In fact, there is NO specific commandment to the church to worship on any given day of the week. The word church comes from a pagan europen/teutonic word "kirke." It means circle and refers to the circle of the sun. The ancient Druids met on the first of the day week (SUNday) to worship the sun. So are you prepared to abandon your "pagan" churchgoing ways???

The world is going to hell in a hand basket, and the church is so powerless that most can't even keep demons out of their midst.... and you guys seem to think that celebrating the birth of our Lord on existing pagan holidays that we know is nowhere close to his birthday.... I just sit back and wonder at how many times you all have told folks on this board that you don't accept things because they are not in the Word and then take all this stuff in as great..... I have to just sit back and shake my head in wonder. as to how you do it.

Tell me this... Are there any days on the calendar that have not been a pagan holiday somewhere in the history of man??? Every day that has ever existed belongs to God, not to the pagans. From a purely practical standpoint, there is no day we could have picked a day that wasn't used by the pagans for something. But Dec. 25 is as good as any other day and besides, we don't know the exact day of Jesus' birth.

The OP expalined why Dec. 25 was chosen. It had nothing to do with the pagans, but had to do with how they viewed the birth and death dates of God's prophets. Whether they were correct is another issue. The issue is that Dec. 25th was not chosen to imitate the pagans.

The truth is that you cannot provide any facts. All you can do is parrot a bunch of half-baked, know-nothing conpsracists who have nothing to day that is based in fact or truth. All you can do is deflect attention away from your impotent claims by claiming that our celebration of Christmas is sending peopple to hell. That is nonsense. No thinking person will buy into it.

You are easily led...

[Watchman Neo]

So just how serious is it that three of my old work friends might go to hell over how you guys celebrate Christmas if I can't convince them that you guys are wrong that that video has no value for the pagan things it refers to have nothing to do with Christ.

Respectfully, this will not happen. The power is the gospel...the good news of Christ and of the kingdom of God. No one comes to Christ unless our Father draws them. If folks want to point at a Christian's behavior and say, "that is why I will not believe", then they can point at every one of us and say it...regardless of whether it is over Christmas celebration, football victory celebration, or having a glass of wine with a meal. Those who are looking for a reason not to believe will conjure one. Those who have seeking hearts open to God will accept His drawing faithfully.

The power of salvation is God's and is found in His good news..in and of ourselves, we cannot convert a single person. We do not possess that power...only God does.

blessings,

Watchman Neo

Edited December 25, 2011 by Watchman Neo

[other one]

half baked no nothing conspiratists.... So you're telling me that Chuck Missler, Tom Horn and David Wilkerson are half baked no nothing conspiratists and I should listen to you instead of them..... awesome..... simply awesome....

[Guest shiloh357]

half baked no nothing conspiratists.... So you're telling me that Chuck Missler, Tom Horn and David Wilkerson are half baked no nothing conspiratists and I should listen to you instead of them..... awesome..... simply awesome....

I have not said anything about those men. I am referencing the information you have posted, which to the best of my knowledge doesn't come from them.

the fact remains that you cannot and therefore, will not post any genuine historical or archeological evidence for your claims, because it doesn't exist.

You cannot make ANY hard connection between Christmas and paganism because it is isnt there. I don't care WHO you quote. Truth does not depend on who says it or how many. If something is true, because it is true.

Up to this point, all you can do is your usally complaining that your claims are not being accepted and then you resort to your manipulative method of trying to blame the rest of us because some of your friends will probably to go to hell because they believe what they saw in some stupid video and neither they nor you have the good sense to actually check the facts of that video.

You conspiracists just suck up whatever sounds plausible and believe whatever ridiculous thought pops into your head and you don't like it when thinking people confuse you with REAL facts that burst your little conspiratorial bubble.

This whole copy cat, Christmas is pagan nonsense is just an intellectual claptrap for people who are too dull to search for the truth, or are too lazy to want to.

[Watchman Neo]

half baked no nothing conspiratists.... So you're telling me that Chuck Missler, Tom Horn and David Wilkerson are half baked no nothing conspiratists....

I am not familiar with Tom Horn; however, Chuck Missler and David Wilkerson have been used by the Lord to teach me a great deal. Do I believe everything either of them teach? No. Does that invalidate the entirety of their teachings? No. So if they believe something different about Christmas than do I, it is not a big deal. There will ever be doctrinal differences between brothers and sisters in Christ...and these are burdens we are to bear while fulfilling His law.

blessings,

Watchman Neo

[mizzdy]

Hey at least it started the day before christmas this year. As someone who does not observe christmas, who does see the progression from keeping the biblical feasts into something not given by Him, I think if people want to keep christmas they should do so if that is what they want. At the end of the day we must ask ourselves a few questions, did God ordain it, did Yeshua tell us to keep it, if its not biblical should we keep it? Its not ordain in scriptures, its not spoken of by our Messiah nor did the apostles set forth any new celebration, and since its no to those questions we can definately say its not biblical. Do we keep the these things because they are just tradtions? To me I think it would be pretty clear in the bible when Yeshua's bday was, when it was celebrated, I mean if He can make sure His set apart days are still kept nearly 6thousand years later He would manage to keep His Sons day right up there with them, but its not there. Since its not clear, not even mentioned the day why do we take the things of men and put His name on it?

It is not commanded, but that doesn't really serve as an argument agaisnt celebrating Christmas, even on Dec. 25. The problem is that it is not commanded agasint either. It is does not violate any established doctrines or explicit teachings of Scripture.

Christmas is a more modern tradition that has evolved over time. Were you to go back to its origins in Europe, it would look entirely different than it does now in 21st Century America/Europe.

Should the Jewish people not celbrate Purim because it is not commanded in the Bible? There is no commandment to celebrate Rosh Hashanna either. Should those festivals be abandoned? The Feast of Dedication (Chaunkah) is not commanded either. Yet Jesus commemorated it. While you're at it, Bar Mitzvah's did not exist in Bible times. Neither does Yom Ha Shoah, Simcha Torah, Shemini Azteret, the fast of Tish B'Av, or the holiday of Tu B'Shevat.

In order to be internally consistent, you will have argue that those Jewish holidays should be abandoned by Messianic and traditional Jews alike since we do not find them explicity or implicitly commanded anywhere in the Bible.

The point is that it is not wrong to establish our own traditions and use those traditions to remember a biblical event like Christmas. There is no prohibition against traditions in the Bible. The problem is when traditions are allowed to supercede the Bible. Even then, the problem isn't the tradition istself. The problem lies in the heart of the person observing it.

Are we not to do what Yeshua did? are we not to follow those things that He did, are we not to immulate our Creator and Savior? You and I differ over who 'Israel' is, I do not see a separate brand new group of people I see a continuation of what God started in the beginning a faithful group of people who call upon His name, who walk in His everlasting ways who are given the title of Israel firstborn of God, just as Messiah although not 'first born' or created is said to be the first born of creation. You see Israel as the Jews only so we are not going to agree on many things but I do think that we agree that its His Word that rules over our lives and just as Messiah, Paul and the rest had some serious trouble with the ultra orthodox making claims on the newly converted gentiles that 'added' things such as circumcision was 'required' for salvation we see the creeping in of things not ordained by God. What rabbinical Judaism celebrates does not concern me much, one day they will see Messiah for who He is, frankly what others do out of traditions doesnt bother me much either, people can choose for themselves for me I try to stick to scriptures, I do not 'keep' Hanukkah either, we dont light the menorah or give gifts for 8 days but we do acknowledge that miracle of men standing for Gods Torah and not giving into men or persecution which is something all of us may face someday. There are many Messianics who have come out of Judaism who do still keep them but I am finding many are starting to relax their rabbinical ways and see things more in keeping with 'the Spirit of the law' and other things. Then I see those who walk straight out of mainstream christianity into Messianic who run right into the arms of an orthodox rabbi and forsake the very Messiah that brought them salvation.

I keep the biblical feasts and the Sabbaths including the new moon celebration because they are biblical ordained, no dont keep them perfectly to be sure but until He comes again all we are doing is rehearshing them. It is wrong to establish something put His name on it and call it ordained by God, and I cant find many christians who do believe this is Yeshua's actual bday who do not believe its ordained by Him.

I know the history, the mixing of things that have come into the body through means of men, good hearted and not, I try to stand on the biblical model of what God calls everlasting, and not on the things that men have put their mark on. And no Purim nor the 'head of the year' is biblical, I do not keep them myself and have no problems with others doing what they feel is correct. I do think its wrong to put His Name, YHWH's name on something that He didn't, He did not ordain His sons birthday nor set it aside. The only 'other' thing that we see Messiah doing is keeping the Feast of Dedication. I see so many here and other places telling every single person that its only His Words that matter, that we are to do what He says, the plain truth of scriptures stand up for all yet we also see traditions of man come into the fold where scriptures are silent.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest shiloh357]

Are we not to do what Yeshua did? are we not to follow those things that He did, are we not to immulate our Creator and Savior?

In terms of character, yes. In terms of how He modeled the ways in which we deal with temptation, unforgiveness, patience, prayer, faithfulness, and dedication and surrender to the Will of the Father, yes.

Are we expected to emulate Him in terms of first century Hebrew culture? No. There is nothing wrong with living that way if you choose to do so, but there is NO NT expecation, commandment given either explicitly or imiplicity that we are to do so.

You and I differ over who 'Israel' is, I do not see a separate brand new group of people I see a continuation of what God started in the beginning a faithful group of people who call upon His name, who walk in His everlasting ways who are given the title of Israel firstborn of God, just as Messiah although not 'first born' or created is said to be the first born of creation.

Yes. We differ because I operate from the Bible's definition. I don't subscribe to the theological gymnastics of the Two-House sect.

You see Israel as the Jews only so we are not going to agree on many things

LOL, the reason we disagree is because that is not how I view it and have never stated that. The problem in part exists due to your inability to correctly frame and articulate my views.

but I do think that we agree that its His Word that rules over our lives and just as Messiah, Paul and the rest had some serious trouble with the ultra orthodox making claims on the newly converted gentiles that 'added' things such as circumcision was 'required' for salvation we see the creeping in of things not ordained by God.

It is a little more complicated than that. What was creeping in at that time were both Judaizing cults and gnostic beliefs that were designed to challenge was being taught.

You cannot compare that with modern Christmas traditions, as things like the Christmas tree, Nativitiy scenes, Santa Claus, and so on originated in Chrstian Europe, not in Babylon. So, it really isn't the same thing.

What rabbinical Judaism celebrates does not concern me much, one day they will see Messiah for who He is, frankly what others do out of traditions doesnt bother me much either, people can choose for themselves for me I try to stick to scriptures, I do not 'keep' Hanukkah either, we dont light the menorah or give gifts for 8 days but we do acknowledge that miracle of men standing for Gods Torah and not giving into men or persecution which is something all of us may face someday. There are many Messianics who have come out of Judaism who do still keep them but I am finding many are starting to relax their rabbinical ways and see things more in keeping with 'the Spirit of the law' and other things. Then I see those who walk straight out of mainstream christianity into Messianic who run right into the arms of an orthodox rabbi and forsake the very Messiah that brought them salvation.

That completely misses the point. I am not talking about Orthodox Judaism at all. I am talking about observnaces that are common to both traditional and Messianic Judaism. The point is that for you to be entirely consistent, you would have to argue that nothing that is not clearly stated in the Bible should not be observed.

I keep the biblical feasts and the Sabbaths including the new moon celebration because they are biblical ordained, no dont keep them perfectly to be sure but until He comes again all we are doing is rehearshing them. It is wrong to establish something put His name on it and call it ordained by God, and I cant find many christians who do believe this is Yeshua's actual bday who do not believe its ordained by Him.

Well then, you should get out more. Most Christians know and have known for a long time that Dec. 25th is not Jesus' real birthday. Messianics think they have some breaking news on that issue but I can point to Christian publications going back to as earlly as the 19th century that acknowledge the fact that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th. In fact most people know that many of our traditions are just that: They are traditions and not historically accurate all points. The point of the traditions is not to reflect exacting historical precision, but to honor the fact of His birth.

I do think its wrong to put His Name, YHWH's name on something that He didn't, He did not ordain His sons birthday nor set it aside.

The problem here is that you are being a bit over dramatic. Christmas is a tradition. No one has put God's Name on it. I think you overstating what is being done.

The only 'other' thing that we see Messiah doing is keeping the Feast of Dedication. I see so many here and other places telling every single person that

its only His Words that matter, that we are to do what He says, the plain truth of scriptures stand up for all yet we also see traditions of man come into the fold where scriptures are silent.

So if it is wrong to keep Christmas because it is not ordained by God, why was it okay for Jesus to keep the Feast of Dedication, whiich was also not ordatined of God? Why was it okay for Jesus to use the Amidah as a model prayer for his disciples when that prayer was not ordained by God? I mean shouldn't the principle be consistent?

[Massorite]

I stand

To be sure, there is only ONE Sun of Righteousness.

Malachi 4:2

“But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

Footnotes:

I think you got the word "sun" spelled wrong. It should be Son as in SON OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT SUN (S-U-N) AS IN THE PLANET.

It is SUN. Look it up.

Since the beginning of Christianity, Christians, such as Justin Martyr to today, have regarded the "Sun of Righteousness" as a reference to Jesus.

In many scriptures, God is related to a planet or star (Psalm 84:11, Isaiah 60:19, Revelation 22:16, Numbers 24:17). Here, the Messiah is not only a Sun, but also the Sun of Righteousness who brings healing---healing in His wings, which is a reference to the tassels of His tzittzit, called 'wings'.

Jesus is the light of the world. He is our righteousness, not the son of righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:6

And this will be his name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’ In that day Judah will be saved, and Israel will live in safety.

Jeremiah 33:16

In that day Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this will be its name: ‘The Lord Is Our Righteousness.’

I stand corrected.