Hebraic v. Hellenistic Thought

[wordsower]

Nicodemus:

John 3

He was of the Pharisees. He came by night to speak to Jesus--probably because he didn't want to be seen by the other Pharisees. He says we know that you are a teacher from God--so the Pharisees had been discussing it.

He tries to show his knowledge and that he recognizes Jesus is of God.

Jesus tells him he must be born again to see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus is a little taken aback by that. He asks , 'born again? Am I going back into the womb?'

Jesus explains what it is to be born of the Spirit and Nic is more perplexed.

Jesus tells him that no one has ascended to heaven except He Who came down, that is the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Nic is confused.

Jesus tells him something he can relate to: He says as the serpant was lifted up by Moses so the Son of Man must be lifted up and whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.

In John 7:49 we find Nicodemus again defending Jesus, asking the Pharisees if they are going to judge a man without hearing him. (He is still wondering, thinking about what Jesus said to him, but not convicted)

I beleive Nicodemus was at the crucifixtion and saw the Son of Man lifted up and remembered what Jesus had told him. In John 19:39 we find him again taking the body of Jesus with Joseph of Arimathea to bury him.

Jesus planted a seed that Nicodemus could relate to and it came to him later and I beleive he was converted.

Hebraic or Hellinistic, He plants the same seeds in us and draws us to Himself. We have to believe and we become one in Christ.

My God is Awesome!! :il:

[nebula]

If I say, "Although cats and dogs are both animals we use as pets, cats take less care than dogs, but dogs will be your companions," am I saying that cats are better than dogs or that dogs are better than cats?

I guess it depends on your preference. They both make great, awesome, wonderful, lovable pets! But you will have a different relationship with a cat than you will with a dog. (i.e Would you rather serve or be served? LOL!)

There is a difference between them. I can never say my dog is the same as my cat or vice-versa. They are both mine. I love them both. But because of their unique traits, my relationship with them is different. (I certainly wouldn't roll around on the floor with my tiny cat - she'd get squashed! I can't play fetch-the-ball with my cat. I can't expect to wiggle a string in front of my dog and get him to play with it. I don't walk my cat like I do my dog. My cat needs her independance; my dog needs lots of social interaction.)

OK - let's see how he mixes metaphores with this one!

[Jedi4Yahweh]

If I say, "Although cats and dogs are both animals we use as pets, cats take less care than dogs, but dogs will be your companions," am I saying that cats are better than dogs or that dogs are better than cats?

I guess it depends on your preference.

[Guest yod]

What planet are you from?

No one is even comparing jews and gentiles in this thread. We were discussing 2 philosophical views of interpreting the world. Jews and Gentiles can fit into either catagory of these views (and DO) but there you go again....comparing jews and gentiles.

That is BAD fruit.

if you'd like to start a thread to compare jews vs gentiles we can do that but it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

[Guest yod]

OK...maybe it does.

The hebraic mindset gets its name because the hebrews are the people whom God first revealed Himself. They were the first to receive His Word..the revelation of who He is.

This is the root of hebraic thought. God is the center of the universe. The hebrews were the only people in the world to have this revelation for about 3,000 years before Yeshua appeared in human form. Don't gloss over that number! How long has the Protestant Reformation been around? 400 years?

When Alexander the Great conquored the world and spread Greek philosophy, he was spreading the wisdom of men like Socrates & Plato. It was a different view than the hebraic one to be sure. Greek philosophy places man in the center....and it was the predominant thought in the world except for a small sliver of land between Lebanon and Eygpt called Israel/Judah.

Actually, hellenism even took over in Israel except for the extremely devout who refused assimilation into the "modern" world.

This hellenistic philosophy was predominant for thousands of years also...and it covered the entire known world. That is why the New Testament was written in Greek; the most common language of the world for many centuries.

The whole point of bringing it up was to point out that many of the early church (jew AND gentile) saw the story of the God-Man, Yeshua, through hellenistic philosophy. It caused all kinds of various problems which Paul had to address

in various places.

Perhaps the most lasting misunderstanding is the way we view the Torah today....and the way the historic church interpreted Paul's teachings on the Torah in the predominantly gentile church after removing all vestiges of hebraic interpretation almost immediately after the church became a gentile expression.

(There is an attempt at restoring this in the modern church which still meets resistance from "some" people )

Example?

The law has never been bad. The problem is with us...with sin...and sin takes opportunity to condemn us through the Law. Therefore we do the law naturally because the Torah is written on our hearts.

Its a hebraic concept which is not easily understood through hellenistic philosophy. Hellenism has no standard for judging what sin is except for each man's personal conscience. Does that sound like any christians or churches you know of?

You can scoff at this all you want....but this concept was taught by the Apostle Paul when he says, "The jews require a sign (physically doing) and the Greeks require wisdom (theoretical thought processes)

Another example regarding the Torah in the hebraic mindset;

Yeshua didn't come to save us from keeping the law...He came to save us from the penalty of NOT keeping the Law. This means there is no condemnation for those in Messiah Yeshua who walk in the spirit...but what we sow we shall also reap.

Now....I know that you will read that last paragraph through hellenistic glasses and mischaracterize what I just said...then argue against a point I never made. It's getting quite predictable.

But this isn't a thread for comparing jews and gentiles in the church...and it isn't a thread on the law. It is a thread on methods of understanding the hebraic perspective of the hebrew writers of the Bible versus the way it was interpreted by early christians who couldn't even read Hebrew. Don't blame me that God chose the jews to do this either. I just accept that as reality.

St Augustine is a good example. He is regarded as one of the greatest theologians in history by many, yet He couldn't read hebrew OR greek. He read Latin interpretations of Greek translations of Hebrew! Do you think it's possible that some of the original intent and meaning of hebraic concepts got lost?

And before Wordsower makes this a discussion of law...

There have always been culturally relevant reasons for portions of the law which change with culture and necessity...but there are also portions which are "forever" and do not change. Thank God we are under the atonement of His blood...or there wouldn't be a busload of people going to heaven.

hmmm....I can only think of One!

[wordsower]

Yod, that wasn't nice.

I posted my thoughts on Nicodemus to show that regardless of what mindset a person comes with, they can come to an understanding of truth. I thought it was pretty amazing that Nicodemus first came by night to seek Jesus is secret and later spoke out against his peers in Jesus' defense and then still after the death of Jesus, asked for His body realizing He was the Christ.

You can scoff at this all you want....but this concept was taught by the Apostle Paul when he says, "The jews require a sign (physically doing) and the Greeks require wisdom (theoretical thought processes)

No scoffing, but I think Paul's point was that those looking for a sign didn't have any faith and required physical proof.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yod, that wasn't nice.

I posted my thoughts on Nicodemus to show that regardless of what mindset a person comes with, they can come to an understanding of truth.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE 

You can scoff at this all you want....but this concept was taught by the Apostle Paul when he says, "The jews require a sign (physically doing) and the Greeks require wisdom (theoretical thought processes)

No scoffing, but I think Paul's point was that those looking for a sign didn't have any faith and required physical proof.

Is that so, Wordsower? Tell me... How is looking for a sign any less faithless than those who require that they be intellectually satisfied before accepting the truth. I think you miss Paul's point, BIG TIME.

[nebula]

"The jews require a sign (physically doing) and the Greeks require wisdom (theoretical thought processes)"

"The Jews require a sign" = Hebraic

"The Greeks require wisdom" = Hellinistic

What's the problem?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

"The Jews require a sign (physically doing) and the Greeks require wisdom (theoretical thought processes)"

"The Jews require a sign" = Hebraic

"The Greeks require wisdom" = Hellenistic

What's the problem?

If you read into it they are both negative traits that we need to overcome.

In other words Jews want proof before believing and Greeks want logic and understand before believing.

1Co 1:22-23 KJV For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: (23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Those are two frequent problems that Paul ran into while preaching to the Jews and Greeks of his day. He is not saying the world is stuck between two thought patterns. Hebraic vs. Hellenistic.

If you are a Christian you should follow neither. You should not be like the Jews who seek a sign and see the gospel as a stumbling block and neither should you be like the Greeks who require wisdom and see the gospel as foolishness. Both are bad.

I don't see how you guys are building a Psychology off that scripture in which "all" people fall into. Not all Jews require a sign and not all Greeks require logic to believe.

You guys are reading way too deep into this and making a mole hill into a mountain.